Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

I'll put your failure to read and understand documents, discussions and evaluations pertaining to the external borders and Greece, down to a blinkered form of reading fueled only by the need to support your "theories" (aka: lies) that :

It is very simple. The EU commission, then the Council explicitly state exactly which evaluation report they are talking about. You explicitly distorted this plain simple reality to make out they were in fact talking about an entirely different document that is not even called an evaluation report. That you did this is so clear and obvious and has been shown time and again.

(a) Greece had been threatened with sanctions by the EU Commission

I made on simple claim which was that "EU Commission is criticising and threatening sanctions against Greece". I used at that time a single EU Commission press release to back up this claim. From that point on you just started screaming 'liar' and claiming there was no basis what so ever for my statement and that it was entirely made up. You also then introduced a report that was not the one that this EU Commission press release was about, repeatedly asserted that this was the only relevant report, the only one on which decisions would be made - despite this being so plainly and utterly untrue as was shown by the original Press release and the subsequent ones and the actual implementing decision made by the Council. Along the way you scattered in other totally ridiculous, unsupported and unsupportable claims, like the claim that Greece has no obligations or responsibilities for external borders in Greece and these are solely the responsibility of EU federal agencies.

This is what you do. This is what you have always done here on this forum.

(b) Greece also faced expulsion.

And once more you show how you systematically behave on this forum in discussion such as these. As has been repeatedly pointed out I never made the claim that Greece was facing expulsion. I did quote headlines from media outlets that made such claims, to show how ridiculous your claim that there was no basis what so ever for the claim I did make was. In fact I was the very person that first explicitly pointed out that there is currently no mechanism under the Schengen agreements by which the EU could expel Greece from Schenegn, only mechanism that would allow it to suspend Greece. Your assertion therefore that I have been trying to support a theory that Greece faced expulsion makes no logical sense and is just yet another one of your total distortions of actual reality. One that you just go on repeating over and over no matter how many times it is shown beyond any reasonable doubt to be unsupportable by actual real world evidence.

This is what you do. This is what you have always done here on this forum.

My position has not changed and has been shown to be the correct one and supported with the events that have unfolded. More joint support for the external border.

Indeed your position has not change and is unchangeable despite any and all evidence presented. From the off you tried to make out that the evaluation report the EU Commission press release was about and that would subsequently be used by the council to make policy decisions based on was an entirely different report from the one explicitly listed in the Press release, and that pre dated the actual visits that the real report was based on and is not even called an evaluation report. You have relentlessly stuck to this 'position' despite any and all clear evidence, in the form of EU Commission press releases and EU Council ones and EU Councils actual implementing decision, that you are just absolutely totally wrong about this.

This is what you do. This is what you have always done here on this forum.

For this reason I conclude that you (erolz and stud) are not worth discussing anything meaningful with.

In future, avoid making false claims and then you will not have to spend over a month repeating the same garbage and misreading everything in order to support your lies.

I have long known that rational, cogent debate wit you is impossible. That does not mean that I will not continue to challenge the contemptible way you treat truth and reality with utter disdain to suit your agenda.

[Lordo]

if she was horse in this condition would have put down on humanitarian grounds.

[GreekIslandGirl]

...I used at that time a single EU Commission press release to back up this claim.

Except, it didn't. Nor did anything else.

And that's when you went off the rails trying to twist each document, evaluation, discussion into a mixed up jumble to try and divert from your original lie!

Face it. If you were telling the truth - you would have found a satisfactory quote.

Like always - you failed!

[erolz66]

Except, it didn't.

Just you repeatedly saying it didn't does not mean that is actually the case. The basis on which a claim that the EU had criticising and threatening sanctions against Greece is clear in this single press release. Clear not just to me but to the hundreds of media outlets that reported on it subsequently that you write off entirely and to the various Greek ministers that started talking about Greece being threatened with suspensions by the EU as direct result of this single press release. Compared with your claim that the press release was about a document that it was not about and that decision would be made on this document that the press release was not about - which is so clearly and utterly not true, a claim you have repeated incessantly over and over despite the clear overwhelming undeniable evidence to the contrary.

And that's when you went off the rails trying to twist each document, evaluation, discussion into a mixed up jumble to try and divert from your original lie!

There was one press release originally referring to a single evaluation report - the Schengen evaluation report on Greece - called such explicitly in the title of the press release and the body of the text. YOU were the one who introduced a report that was not the one the press release was explicitly about, making out against and regardless of all actual evidence that this report, that is not even titled as an evaluation report, let alone the evaluation report on Greece, that covered a period that pre dated the visits of inspectors to Greece, was the one the press release was about, was the one that would be used by the EU Council to make it's decisions. You were the one who claimed the EU Commission press release was a debating site and 'not the EU Commission' and countless other diversions and distortions of actual reality. You did these things in support of an argument that the EU Commission had not even criticised Greece at all, when the actual EU Commission press release explicitly said that the evaluation report had concluded that Greece was seriously deficient in terms of it's managing of external borders in Greece.

Face it. If you were telling the truth - you would have found a satisfactory quote.

Like always - you failed!

And once more you show how you behave here. The 'argument' that unless within an EU Commission press release there is an explicit text that says "The EU commission is threatening Greece with sanctions", then there can be no basis what so ever on which it could be said they are threatening Greece with sanctions - regardless of what the press release actually says - this is the argument of a child. It is also the argument of a hypocrite given that you require no such 'burden of proof' to make the claims you make. For example no where will you find any text in any EU document that says 'Greece is not responsible for the management of external boarders in Greece' - yet you made this claim repeatedly despite and regardless of the clear and explicit evidence that it is not true.

This is what you do. It is what you have always done.

[GreekIslandGirl]

If you were telling the truth - you would have found a satisfactory quote.

Instead, you're still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[erolz66]

Instead, you're still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

This entire sorry excuse for a discussion with you can be summed up by

The real world

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... of-greece/

Schengen evaluation of Greece: Council adopts recommendation to address deficiencies in external borders

On 12 February 2016, the Council adopted a recommendation on addressing serious deficiencies identified during an evaluation of Greece's application of the Schengen acquis in the area of external border management. The recommendation proposes to Greece remedial action to address these deficiencies.

GiG's land of distortion

Meanwhile the evaluation it will be based on does NOT criticise Greece but offers solutions, such as using Frontex more. Other countries are indeed criticized

The difference between what the EU Council actually said and did and why it said vs your made up distortions based on nothing but you need to exonerate Greece of all and any censure in inescapable.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I don't appreciate you distorting what I say to such extremes as if to pigeonhole me and then bash the extremes instead of what I said.

But I'll take your thread .....

cyprus44591.html

.....as an admittance that you are coming to a slow realisation of the enormity of your blunder.

Would you like an aspirin?

[erolz66]

I don't appreciate you distorting what I say to such extremes as if to pigeonhole me and then bash the extremes instead of what I said.

The quote from you is verbatim. It is linked so you can click on it to see the full context. Of course you do not like having your blatant distortion of actual reality laid out so barely, because it is so clear and so blatant.

The real world http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... of-greece/

Schengen evaluation of Greece: Council adopts recommendation to address deficiencies in external borders

On 12 February 2016, the Council adopted a recommendation on addressing serious deficiencies identified during an evaluation of Greece's application of the Schengen acquis in the area of external border management. The recommendation proposes to Greece remedial action to address these deficiencies.

GiG's land of distortion

Meanwhile the evaluation it will be based on does NOT criticise Greece but offers solutions, such as using Frontex more. Other countries are indeed criticized
The rest are debates/speculation/propaganda such as yours - and NOT the EU COMMISSION.

[supporttheunderdog]

If you were telling the truth - you would have found a satisfactory quote.

Instead, you're still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You are the square peg...

As to your comments

You're so mixed up with the documents and evaluations, it's pitiful.

Rather YOU are the one who seems to be mixed, pitifully so, or at least trying mix up other readers therefore I will make the following points and again ask some questions, which are very easy to answer if you have done your homework.

Under COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 2007/2004 of 26 October 2004 establishing a European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders of the Member States of the European Union, The responsibility for the control and surveillance of external borders lies with the Member States.

http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/Legal_basis/frontex_regulation_en.pdf

That remains unchanged EU law.

On 12 February 2016, the Council adopted a recommendation on addressing serious deficiencies identified during an evaluation of Greece's application of the Schengen acquis in the area of external border management. The recommendation proposes to Greece remedial action to address these deficiencies.
The action recommended covers areas such as registration procedures, sea border surveillance, border check procedures, risk analyses, human resources and training, infrastructure and equipment and international cooperation.

On 2 February 2016 the Commission adopted the Schengen evaluation report on Greece and submitted to the Council a recommendation to address specific deficiencies in the external border management.

The report was carried out following an unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) from 10 to 13 November 2015.

The Schengen evaluation mechanism, established in October 2013 by the Council Regulation 1053/2013, provides for the verification of the application of the Schengen rules through monitoring visits to a given member state by teams with experts from the Commission and member states. After the visits, that can be announced or unannounced, a Schengen Evaluation Report is drawn up and agreed by the Schengen evaluation committee of member state experts. If the report identifies any weaknesses in the evaluated area of the Schengen acquis, the Commission presents to the Council for adoption recommendations for remedial action.
The Commission may also, under Article 19b of the Schengen Borders Code, recommend that the evaluated member state take certain specific measures with a view to ensuring compliance with this recommendation.

Where, after three months from the adoption of the Council recommendation, serious deficiencies persist and the measures taken have not proved sufficient, the Commission may trigger the application of the procedure provided for in article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code.

Under article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code, the Commission may propose a recommendation, to be adopted by the Council by qualified majority, to reintroduce controls at all or specific parts of the border of one or more member states as a matter of last resort. They may be introduced for a period of up to six months. Controls can be prolonged for additional six month periods up to a maximum duration of two years.

As far as I know There is only the one report and one set of documents about it, (all linked in this document) all basically saying the same thing, so nothing to get mixed up: if there are more and which support your point of view, can you please clearly identify them?

Otherwise I think the above comments encapsulate what I (and I suspect Erolz) have (separately) concluded is the position: If you think the above is NOT a correct statement of the EU position what is actually incorrect about it?

Absent that, Oracle, Phoenix, gIG, Do you deny that it is the case that:

1) under para 4 of ec2007/2004 Greece is responsible for its external borders?
http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/Legal_basis/frontex_regulation_en.pdf
2) as outlined above, following following an unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) from 10 to 13 November 2015., the results of which were not available when the 8th Biannual report on the functioning of Shengen was issued in Mid December, serious defuicinces were found in the the performance of Greece in complying with certain Obligations under the Schengen rules as incorporated in Eu law to control the external border and in particular to properly record who was passing in to the EU through it?

Specifically The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents. Under the current circumstances, situational awareness and reaction capability are not sufficient for efficient border surveillance. These serious deficiencies relating to external border control constitute a serious threat to public policy and internal security and put at risk the overall functioning of the area without internal border control. The serious deficiencies referred to represent, as far as the carrying out of external border controls is concerned, a situation where the obligations referred to in Article 16(1) and (4) of Regulation (EU) No 1053/2013 have not been met.

3) The finding of serious deficiencies was the subject of an official EU press release (not discussion document) on 27th Jan which specifically referred to sanctions that could be imposed under art 19 b and Article 26 of the SBC?
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-174_en.htm

4) that on 2nd Feb the commission adopted the inspection report on Greece as reported in an official Eu press release (not discussion document) of 3rd feb and repeated the warning of actions that could be taken under Arts 19b and 26 SBC ?
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-211_en.htm

5) that on 12th February Feb the council adopted the report and under article 19b the Council has imposed the sanction of requiring Greece to implement certain measures to improve compliance with her Schengen obligations and threatened that if she fails to do so, Greece may have the sanction imposed bey being required to reintroduce controls at all or specific parts of the border for travel to other Schengen states, as reported in official EU documents, i.e. at least a partial suspension from Schengen, all as reported in official EU sources?

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/12-schengen-evaluation-of-greece/
http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-5985-2016-INIT/en/pdf

Note no references to the gutter press or other MSM, only to official EU papers or press releases.

All of thse are points that you have singularly failed to address but by describing them as lies, which they plainly are not.

I do indeed I wonder how much credibility you have left here, bearing in mind how YOURr lies and distortions have been exposed, on this topic.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I don't appreciate you distorting what I say to such extremes as if to pigeonhole me and then bash the extremes instead of what I said.

The quote from you is verbatim. It is linked so you can click on it to see the full context. Of course you do not like having your blatant distortion of actual reality laid out so barely, because it is so clear and so blatant.

The real world http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... of-greece/

Schengen evaluation of Greece: Council adopts recommendation to address deficiencies in external borders

On 12 February 2016, the Council adopted a recommendation on addressing serious deficiencies identified during an evaluation of Greece's application of the Schengen acquis in the area of external border management. The recommendation proposes to Greece remedial action to address these deficiencies.

GiG's land of distortion

Meanwhile the evaluation it will be based on does NOT criticise Greece but offers solutions, such as using Frontex more. Other countries are indeed criticized
The rest are debates/speculation/propaganda such as yours - and NOT the EU COMMISSION.

I swore I won't be drawn in to your many, many lies and distortions because as soon as one lie is dealt with you spring up another ....

But this is an example of how you distort, lie and twist:

You took my comment made: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:04 pm

from:

cyprus43551-40.html

- and applied it to a document published at a later date: 12 February 2016

Nevertheless, the recommendations adopted - from even the later document - have been as I said - not what you claimed "expulsion" and "sanctions" - but more help from Frontex.