Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

This thread was about the good things that the locals have done in helping their fellow man.

Already addressed here. As I said before if you had just responded with 'go away, this thread is not about that' - then that would have been the end of it.

However you chose to instead try and brand me a liar by systematically distorting actual factual reality. Of course now you would rather 'move on' because that behaviour of yours is being so clearly exposed as I will do once more.

You just have to compare actual factual reality with what you have claimed to see that. By actual factual reality I mean the actual verbatim text of the Council of the European Union Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16. That is why I call it actual factual reality.

Actual factual reality

An unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) was carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015. Following this visit, a report covering the findings and assessments, listing best practices and deficiencies identified during the evaluation was adopted on 2 February 2016 by Commission Implementing Decision [C(2016)450]. The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.
The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents.

This is not text from a discussion site or discussion document, not a debating site, not greek hating press report, not my made up words. Just the actual vebatim text from Council of the European Union Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16

Now compare it with GiG's claims.

And in fact even the evaluation report that will lead to decisions doesn't even criticize Greece

Meanwhile the evaluation it will be based on does NOT criticise Greece but offers solutions, such as using Frontex more. Other countries are indeed criticized

In fact if you look at the report instead of your discussion site, it's more critical of Sweden and others!

Like I said, it's all about getting MORE Frontex guards to help Greece!

It means they are adopting its findings and evaluation, which if you look back at the Evaluation Document, you will see are mostly proposals about more Frontex help.

But, it is for discussion and NOT policy making. Understand?

Just by comparing actual factual reality in the form of the verbatim text of the Council of the European Union Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16 and GiG claims anyone can see the clear systematic and blatant distortion of actual reality by GiG. This is just a tiny fraction of all such distortions in this one single discussion alone.

So of course you now want to just move on whilst continuing to deny you made such distortions at all and whilst continuing to try and brand me a liar. Just as of course I will keep on clearly laying out those distortions in response.

[supporttheunderdog]

This thread was about the good things that the locals have done in helping their fellow man. And about the recognition they have been given with the nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize.

It's unforgivable that in his very first post erolz had to ignore such goodness and try and degrade these achievements with posts that indicate hatred - more so, to then make up claims about what the EU Commission recommended. Then to take pages and pages repeating deflections trying to justify his lies with further distortions and outdated irrelevancies.

Just move on, please.

I think you are the one who needs to move on or move out.

Below is a set of links to official EU documents of various sorts, including law or regulation, press releases, statements of findings, decisions etc.

The first sets out the basis upon which Frontex operates. It clearly states that the member nations are in charge of their external borders.

The second is the 8th Biannual report on the functioning of Schengen. On page 12 it deals with Greece. It is not crtical of Greece. I can imaging GIG you will be wetting yourself with excitement at that supposed admission by me, but as the report states, an investigation had been carried out but at that time the results were still under consideration. There was however a clear warning that if serious deficiencies were found then measures could be taken under Article 19b SBC to impose requirements on Greece to remedy the deficiencies or measures might be taken under Article 26 to suspend certain provisions and require Greece to impose at least in some part border controls for travel to other EU member states.

The third is a press release reporting that the commission had found serious deficiencies and repeating the threats of action under arts 19b and 26.

It was not as you mendaciously sought to allege a discussion document as though it contained the word "discussion" it was in the context of provinding information on the discussions of the EU bodies that had or were going to take place. There was no facility or mechanism within the press release for the readers of the press release to have any part in the discussion process , essential for a document to be a discusdion document, and indeed for the duscussions of the EU bodies that had taken place there could be no such facility or mechanism. I invited you to identify such a facility or mechanism for participation in the discussion yet you did not do so.

The fourth is a press release reporting that the commisdion had adopted the investigative report on the investigstions carried out in Greece in November and were sending it to the council for action. It repeated the warnings and/or threats of measures and/or sanctions under article 19b and possibly later art 26 SBC.

The fith is the press release on a council decision to impose a requirement on Greece to implement measures.

The last contains the decision/order itself, covered by the press release above it,that under art 19b SBC Greece must implement 49 identified specific measures, and one catch-all, further that she must do so in an effective manner within three months or measures may be taken under article 26 to suspend certain parts of the Schengen agreement as they apply to Greece, requiring theimposition of border controls for travel to other Schengen nations.

Yes, Greece is getting help to do this. Nevertheless the responsibility rests with Greece under (EC) 2007/2004 to control its external border and with or without help the implementation of the 50 recommendations has got to be effective or as has been reported in the press releases Schengen is at risk, and rather than risk the whole of the Schengen Agreement Measures will be taken to protect it.

I did by the way see a think-piece which argued that the involvement of NATO and the presence of Nato nation ships in the region is not in fact primarily to assist in dealing with the migration problems in the Aegean, as the ship types are not the best for that , but that they are principally there to monitor Russian naval activity in this area. Thst was the author's opinion. I do not know.

However these are the documents that I think conclusively show how utterly wrong you are, so uf you chose to contest that assertion please do so by specific reference to them.

Or will you be evasive and lie as usual? Your last replies indeed show what an intellectual fraud you really are, a charlatan.


http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/About_Frontex/frontex_regulation_en.pdf/
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/e-library/documents/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/docs/eighth_biannual_report_on_the_functioning_of_the_schengen_area_en.pdf
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-174_en.htm
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-211_en.htm
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/12-schengen-evaluation-of-greece/
http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-5985-2016-INIT/en/pdf

[GreekIslandGirl]

I see both moles are still digging to find something because they just cannot accept how wrong they have been in their evaluation of the evaluations.

But erolz thinks he knows better than the EU Commission what should happen - and he has a supporter, since he's an underdog. (He's still fuming his ideas have been ignored, though! )

There was only one course of action and Tusk made it clear.

But the muck-spreaders just don't know any different ....


NATO .... Frontex ...... you're going to be in trouble if you cannot control the EU's external borders!

[erolz66]

I see both moles are still digging to find something because they just cannot accept how wrong they have been in their evaluation of the evaluations.

What can be seen because it has so clearly been shown is your systematic distortion of actual reality to suit your needs.

But erolz thinks he knows better than the EU Commission what should happen

I accept that what the EU Commission says is what the EU Commission says. I accept that what the EU Council passes as Implementing decisions are implementing decisions of the EU Council.

There was only one course of action and Tusk made it clear.

I accept that EU Policy is not set by Donald Tusk , the President of the European Council, speaking to the press in Greece whilst there to rustle up support for an ambitious EU reform program designed to keep Britain in the EU. Policy IS set by the EU Council, made up of minsters from all member countries representing their own countries, making implementing decisions.

I accept that Tusk saying to the press "Excluding Greece from Schengen won't solve migrant crisis" does not mean the EU Council will not suspend Greece, if forced to do so as a measure of last resort, not because doing so will solve the migration crisis but because doing so is necessary.

In short I accept actual reality.

GiG you can not answer even one of the 10 simple straight forward questions that have been put to you, because doing so would expose your systematic distortion of reality in regards to every one of those simple questions. You can not address the glaring distortions of reality you have made when your claims are put up against the verbatim text from the Council of the European Union Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16 as I did above and will do again here.

Actual factual reality

An unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) was carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015. Following this visit, a report covering the findings and assessments, listing best practices and deficiencies identified during the evaluation was adopted on 2 February 2016 by Commission Implementing Decision [C(2016)450]. The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.
The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents.

GiG systematic distortion of the factual reality shown above

And in fact even the evaluation report that will lead to decisions doesn't even criticize Greece

Meanwhile the evaluation it will be based on does NOT criticise Greece but offers solutions, such as using Frontex more. Other countries are indeed criticized

In fact if you look at the report instead of your discussion site, it's more critical of Sweden and others!

Like I said, it's all about getting MORE Frontex guards to help Greece!

It means they are adopting its findings and evaluation, which if you look back at the Evaluation Document, you will see are mostly proposals about more Frontex help.

But, it is for discussion and NOT policy making. Understand?

Just by comparing actual factual reality in the form of the verbatim text of the Council of the European Union Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16 and GiG claims anyone can see the clear systematic and blatant distortion of actual reality by GiG. This is just a tiny fraction of all such distortions in this one single discussion alone.

This is what you do GiG. This is what you have always done.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Since the muck-spreading moles are still ignorant of how the EU intends to solve the problem of its external borders, a quick reminder:

It's not going to 'sanction' Greece! I

It's not going to 'expel' Greece!

(Yup - both muck-spreading moles wrong on both accounts.)

This is what is happening - the meat:

On Friday, it formally launched an unprecedented alliance mission involving a half-dozen German, Turkish, Canadian and Greek warships.

“When a Nato warship locates a smuggling boat the information is passed to the relevant coastguard and Frontex [the EU border agency] to intercept it . . . and return the refugees and migrants to Turkey,” Panos Kammenos, the Greek defence minister, explained.

“It’s one piece in the puzzle of keeping Schengen alive,”

..... a useful way for Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, to at least bring other nations and institutions into a co-ordinated crisis response.

“We are working on contingency plan to do what can best be done in a humanitarian crisis,” said a commission spokesperson.

Meanwhile, some Turkish officials are balking at the idea of taking back refugees diverted from reaching the Greek islands, even though such “pushbacks” have supposedly been agreed with Ankara.

Yiannis Dragasakis, Greece’s deputy prime minister, told a conference on Friday that his country refused to be the “substitute border control of Europe”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/034e1c6a-dca5 ... z41S04lVLv

Oh no! - a contingency plans ?????.... OMG .... this is really going to confuse those mucky-moles who cannot evaluate evaluation documents or press releases or discussions or policy documents or what the EU Commission actually said and not just what the hack media have reported. Oh no!

[supporttheunderdog]

Since the muck-spreading moles are still ignorant of how the EU intends to solve the problem of its external borders, a quick reminder:

It's not going to 'sanction' Greece! I

It's not going to 'expel' Greece!

(Yup - both muck-spreading moles wrong on both accounts.)

This is what is happening - the meat:

On Friday, it formally launched an unprecedented alliance mission involving a half-dozen German, Turkish, Canadian and Greek warships.

“When a Nato warship locates a smuggling boat the information is passed to the relevant coastguard and Frontex [the EU border agency] to intercept it . . . and return the refugees and migrants to Turkey,” Panos Kammenos, the Greek defence minister, explained.

“It’s one piece in the puzzle of keeping Schengen alive,”

..... a useful way for Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, to at least bring other nations and institutions into a co-ordinated crisis response.

“We are working on contingency plan to do what can best be done in a humanitarian crisis,” said a commission spokesperson.

Meanwhile, some Turkish officials are balking at the idea of taking back refugees diverted from reaching the Greek islands, even though such “pushbacks” have supposedly been agreed with Ankara.

Yiannis Dragasakis, Greece’s deputy prime minister, told a conference on Friday that his country refused to be the “substitute border control of Europe”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/034e1c6a-dca5 ... z41S04lVLv

Oh no! - a contingency plans ?????.... OMG .... this is really going to confuse those mucky-moles who cannot evaluate evaluation documents or press releases or discussions or policy documents or what the EU Commission actually said and not just what the hack media have reported. Oh no!

You are trying to ignore me because i have you sussed as an intellectual nonentity , if not an intellectually bully who tries to batter opponents with illogicality, and are now showing your cowardice when the bulkying dies not work. The other point is that using official eu documents i have made points thst you cannot answer As i posted elsewhere this is the official eu position:

This is a summary of the factual position. I invite you to go through it line by line and if you can, and by reference to officisl eu documents, not what might be reported or misreported in the press, identify where it does not reflect official Eu policy.


On 12 February 2016, the Council adopted a recommendation on addressing serious deficiencies identified during an evaluation of Greece's application of the Schengen acquis in the area of external border management. The recommendation proposes to Greece remedial action to address these deficiencies.

The action recommended covers areas such as registration procedures, sea border surveillance, border check procedures, risk analyses, human resources and training, infrastructure and equipment and international cooperation.

The recommendation acknowledges that the EU currently faces an unprecedented migratory and refugee crisis following a sharp increase in mixed migratory flows during 2015. This has meant that several member states have experienced difficulties in ensuring adequate external border controls in accordance with the Schengen acquis, as well as in the reception and processing of migrant arrivals.

Because of its geographical situation, and as result of the shift in migration routes as well as the overall increase in numbers, Greece has been particularly affected by these developments. The very large number of arrivals is such that the external border controls of any member state would be placed under severe pressure.

The recommendation also notes that Greece has taken a number of measures to deal with the situation, but that given the scale of the situation, further efforts are needed. The overall functioning of the Schengen area is at serious risk. The difficulties faced by Greece have an impact on the EU as a whole, and have to be resolved collectively.

On 2 February 2016 the Commission adopted the Schengen evaluation report on Greece and submitted to the Council a recommendation to address specific deficiencies in the external border management.

The report was carried out following an unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) from 10 to 13 November 2015.

The Schengen evaluation mechanism, established in October 2013 by the Council Regulation 1053/2013, provides for the verification of the application of the Schengen rules through monitoring visits to a given member state by teams with experts from the Commission and member states. After the visits, that can be announced or unannounced, a Schengen Evaluation Report is drawn up and agreed by the Schengen evaluation committee of member state experts. If the report identifies any weaknesses in the evaluated area of the Schengen acquis, the Commission presents to the Council for adoption recommendations for remedial action.

The Commission may also, under Article 19b of the Schengen Borders Code, recommend that the evaluated member state take certain specific measures with a view to ensuring compliance with this recommendation.

Where, after three months from the adoption of the Council recommendation, serious deficiencies persist and the measures taken have not proved sufficient, the Commission may trigger the application of the procedure provided for in article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code.

Under article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code, the Commission may propose a recommendation, to be adopted by the Council by qualified majority, to reintroduce controls at all or specific parts of the border of one or more member states as a matter of last resort. They may be introduced for a period of up to six months. Controls can be prolonged for additional six month periods up to a maximum duration of two years.

So please do tell us, with appropriate Evidence gtell us, what is incorrect in the above statement of the position, as at 12th Feb?

I note incidently that despite my having asked you to deal with the matter by reference to what the eu documents say, and where you accuse us of resorting to the hack media, your major reference sources, indeed the one here, is that same hack media. That shows what a hypocrite you are.

[erolz66]

This is what is happening - the meat:

I could, if I were to use the same 'tactics' as you tell you to Stop reproducing junk headlines from idiotic reporters! and that the FT is NOT the same as the EU Commission and that an FT news report is not a POLICY DOCUMENT

However I am not like you.

What part of "It’s one piece in the puzzle of keeping Schengen alive,” can you not understand ?

One piece is indeed using NATO ships, with the agreement of Turkey, to aid in stopping irregular migration.

Another piece is the EU using the mechanisms laid out in the Schengen acquis to get Greece to address the identified serious deficiencies in their management of their external borders, within a three month time frame, under threat of possible suspension from schengen if they fail to do so.

Oh no! - a contingency plans ?????.... OMG .... this is really going to confuse those mucky-moles who cannot evaluate evaluation documents or press releases or discussions or policy documents or what the EU Commission actually said and not just what the hack media have reported. Oh no!

Actual factual reality

An unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) was carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015. Following this visit, a report covering the findings and assessments, listing best practices and deficiencies identified during the evaluation was adopted on 2 February 2016 by Commission Implementing Decision [C(2016)450]. The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.
The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents.

GiG systematic distortion of the factual reality shown above

And in fact even the evaluation report that will lead to decisions doesn't even criticize Greece

Meanwhile the evaluation it will be based on does NOT criticise Greece but offers solutions, such as using Frontex more. Other countries are indeed criticized

In fact if you look at the report instead of your discussion site, it's more critical of Sweden and others!

Like I said, it's all about getting MORE Frontex guards to help Greece!

It means they are adopting its findings and evaluation, which if you look back at the Evaluation Document, you will see are mostly proposals about more Frontex help.

But, it is for discussion and NOT policy making. Understand?

There is indeed one person here who "who cannot evaluate evaluation documents or press releases or discussions or policy documents or what the EU Commission actually said and not just what the hack media have reported." - and the above shows absolutely and clearly that person is YOU GiG.

[GreekIslandGirl]

You're so mixed up with the documents and evaluations, it's pitiful.

I suggest you check yourself on which evaluation document was being discussed and learn the difference between discussing one issue and conflating it with another because you want to divert from your lies!


Meanwhile, I think this is important for understanding:

With dozens of dinghies crossing each day, he noted that Nato vessels are, under international law, obliged to rescue people at risk of drowning.

“In case of rescue of persons coming via Turkey, they will be taken back to Turkey,” he said.

The statement means that anybody rescued by Nato, which has up to five ships in the area, would go back to Turkey because all the migrants are coming from Turkey to Greece.

https://euobserver.com/justice/132462

[erolz66]

You're so mixed up with the documents and evaluations, it's pitiful.

The real world

The evaluation report used by the EU Council to make it's Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16, the same evaluation report that both the previous EU Commission press releases here and here were about is - vebatim according to the Council of the European Union Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16

An unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) was carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015. Following this visit, a report covering the findings and assessments, listing best practices and deficiencies identified during the evaluation was adopted on 2 February 2016 by Commission Implementing Decision [C(2016)450].

It is absolutely clear beyond any possible doubt, from the verbatim text above of the EU Council's Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16, that the evaluation report that the EU Commission produced, refereed to in it's first press release and adopted by Commission Implementing Decision [C(2016)450] ,refereed to in the second press release and that was then used by the EU Council to make its Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16 was an evaluation report specifically about Greece and only Greece following visits only to Greece.

Now just look at just one example of the more than 15 systematic distortions you have made about this single undeniable factual reality.

And in fact even the evaluation report that will lead to decisions doesn't even criticize Greece

It is absolutely clear that your assertion - backed up with nothing but your own claims about which report is being used to make decisions were and are totally and utterly untrue when compared what the EU Council themselves say is the evaluation report on which they based their implementing decision of the 12 February 5985/16. Yet on and on and on you plough as if this glaring and blatant distortion so clearly shown here just did not exist at all. This then is what you do GiG. This is what you have always done.

I suggest you check yourself on which evaluation document was being discussed and learn the difference between discussing one issue and conflating it with another because you want to divert from your lies!

Which evaluation report was used by the EU Council to make their implementing decision of the 12 February 5985/16 is absolutely and explicitly made clear by the EU Council themselves within that very implementing decision, as shown above. Just as your systematic distortions of this factual reality are also made clear by your own words and claims. This is what you do - ignore undeniable factual reality - over and over and over. This what you have always done here. It is beyond pitiful. It is intellectually bankrupt behaviour. It is morally bankrupt behaviour.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I'll put your failure to read and understand documents, discussions and evaluations pertaining to the external borders and Greece, down to a blinkered form of reading fueled only by the need to support your "theories" (aka: lies) that :

(a) Greece had been threatened with sanctions by the EU Commission
(b) Greece also faced expulsion.

My position has not changed and has been shown to be the correct one and supported with the events that have unfolded. More joint support for the external border.

For this reason I conclude that you (erolz and stud) are not worth discussing anything meaningful with.

Go forth and digest the continuing saga of policies, documents and discussion and hopefully you have learnt something about evaluating recommendations vs realpolitik.

In future, avoid making false claims and then you will not have to spend over a month repeating the same garbage and misreading everything in order to support your lies.

Done.