Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Pyro said:

"We have no other option but to risk it and just hope for the best."

Strongly disagree about hoping for the best. Wise people prepare for both the best and the worst, by making sure the initial agreement is sound and by having contingency plans for all scenarios. Soysal has already indicated that the TC and Turkish sides are planning for he contingency of dissolution of the federal state. Look it up.

If that happens then what? Which community inherits the statehood of the state? See the problem?

And that is the reason I keep on harping about the territory being the first and most important aspect of any agreement. Dissolution along with a territorial dispute is one hell of a nightmare. The territory issue must be settled in terms that are clear and unequivocal and signed by both TCs and Turkey along the lines that they relinquish ALL claims to any part of the island, and its territorial waters and EEZ, (not the republic, the island). They forget that which is outside the territorial settlement granted to them in the new agreement. And it goes without saying that the demarcation line should be rationally laid out, not like the "teats' of the Annan maps, and easily monitored and policed.

It should also be made clear that the division is along the lines of TCs in the north and ALL other communities in the south, and that the British bases burden the south and will revert to it if and when the British leave. These are important aspects of any settlement, far more important than the governance etc we wasted decades discussing knowing full well the other side considers them garbage.

Anything else is simply a problem waiting to happen.

[Jerry]

Spot on Nikitas. Fair territorial adjustments would also solve the carpetbagger/settler problem too since neither would be very popular in the southern federated State. I'm convinced that any form of joint administration would ultimately fail, it would only take a few hardliners on one side to kick off the inter-communal conflict again, territorial adjustments should be made on the assumption that one day there could be a divorce. If Turkey insists on guarantees then they should only apply to safeguarding the northern State within its bonudaries.

Turkey pretends to care for the Turkish Cypriots, in reality it wants what Britain has, a base to "protect its southern flank and prevent encirclement by Greece". If we were negotiating with the puppet master directly rather than the puppets I think we would be surprised how much territory they would return to legitimise their hold on the north.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyro said:

"We have no other option but to risk it and just hope for the best."

Strongly disagree about hoping for the best. Wise people prepare for both the best and the worst, by making sure the initial agreement is sound and by having contingency plans for all scenarios. Soysal has already indicated that the TC and Turkish sides are planning for he contingency of dissolution of the federal state. Look it up.

If that happens then what? Which community inherits the statehood of the state? See the problem?

And that is the reason I keep on harping about the territory being the first and most important aspect of any agreement. Dissolution along with a territorial dispute is one hell of a nightmare. The territory issue must be settled in terms that are clear and unequivocal and signed by both TCs and Turkey along the lines that they relinquish ALL claims to any part of the island, and its territorial waters and EEZ, (not the republic, the island). They forget that which is outside the territorial settlement granted to them in the new agreement. And it goes without saying that the demarcation line should be rationally laid out, not like the "teats' of the Annan maps, and easily monitored and policed.

It should also be made clear that the division is along the lines of TCs in the north and ALL other communities in the south, and that the British bases burden the south and will revert to it if and when the British leave. These are important aspects of any settlement, far more important than the governance etc we wasted decades discussing knowing full well the other side considers them garbage.

Anything else is simply a problem waiting to happen.

When I said "risk it" I actually meant the equality thing.

I am sorry but I don't share your fears for an eventual dissolution. Those fears were valid before Cyprus became an EU member, in fact I 've heard of the plan to first trick the GCs in accepting BBF and next step (dissolution) would be a piece of cake for the kinds of like Soysal. First of all Soysal was a Denktash oglani you must know that, and as such had every reason to draft ways for a dissolution. He may even these days pretend to "leak" his plans , but today he is doing it for another reason-to scare the GCs hence make the solution impossible.

Now suppose there was a final BBF solution under which of course both Federal parts would be in the EU. What would dissolution possibly mean for the GC Federal State. Out of the EU?? I don't think so. What about the TC Fed state? Out of the EU? That would be stupid for them and more stupid for Turkey. Inside the EU then? If yes that would be even more stupid. BBF evaporates, and they will in no time end up another GC state.
Actually the TCs do need the GCs both to maintain bizonality, and to stand up on their own feed, and to have a future.Turkey needs the Fed Cyprus to get rid of the bela-yes the Tcs and the Cyprus prob is a bela for her, and secondly to have a friendly country that would support her in her EU path.Disarmament serves her fine she doesn't need bases.

Don't look at the fanatics who are all low IQ. Look at the bright TCs, thank God some of them passed through this forum, I can assure you we are at the exact same wavelength, they are often accused of holding GC views have you ever wondered why?

I am not saying we should not be careful about the eventual agreement, but should concentrate on important issues not far fetched fears.

[Lordo]

you gcs are all a bunch of woosses. never mind solving the cyprus problem, you are so scared of your own shadow that you see problems where there is none.

[Mustiejodu]

Here is my point made over and over again . Devided we shall stay. Prior to 1974 . Those that were of age to recall can you please confirm that there was violance between the greeks themselves, there was atrocities committed by both communities . Just to please those that will make a comment that during 1974 there was also attrocities commited by the turkish soldiers . So now we have included everyone here and no one can claim to be Angels here because everyone commited atrocities and those that deny are TRUELY in denial. To me clearly after 1974 and I make it very clear after 1974 do you think up untill now if there were no presence of turkish soldiers would both sides be at peace considering what was occurring prior to 1974 leading up to 1974 ? Do you think that without the intervention or invasion would the intercommunial clashes and the masacres that were occurring amongst both communities . Would all this have just suddenly stopped. Ok I put it another way . What do you think should have been done after those villages of masacred women and children were commited ? I am not saying that the invasion was the right option to take but what do you think would have stopped these troubles and they were real . Once these types of attrocities are commited there is no turning back . Do you think they would have just stopped after a couple of murdered villages ? The nazis only stopped after the invasion and devision . I don't think Turkey should have intervened on her own but collectively some thing had to be done to stop the bloodshed . People seem to ignore this major problem that was occurring . Too many people have been hurt and many more would have if some one did not take action that is deemed as harsh and invasive . One thing I believe is some one had to do some thing to put a stop to it . The cyprus government at the time let us tear each other apart . They let us down and this is our punishment for the behaviours of our forefathers . Enjoy this permanent devision forever . Good luck . The problem is not solved because there is not enough people that want it solved. The ones that least want it solved are the ones that blame others . You will get remarks for example the Cyprus government saying it's all down to Turkey for the solution or you would hear erdogan saying greece needs to be more involved including roc. It's just a blame game and we are all doing the same so untill we acknowledge and accept that we are all the cause of the problem and accept that we need to move on without blaming then we can break those barriers down and get some progress not regress .

[Mustiejodu]

Spot on Nikitas. Fair territorial adjustments would also solve the carpetbagger/settler problem too since neither would be very popular in the southern federated State. I'm convinced that any form of joint administration would ultimately fail, it would only take a few hardliners on one side to kick off the inter-communal conflict again, territorial adjustments should be made on the assumption that one day there could be a divorce. If Turkey insists on guarantees then they should only apply to safeguarding the northern State within its bonudaries.

Turkey pretends to care for the Turkish Cypriots, in reality it wants what Britain has, a base to "protect its southern flank and prevent encirclement by Greece". If we were negotiating with the puppet master directly rather than the puppets I think we would be surprised how much territory they would return to legitimise their hold on the north.

It is not just a insistence for guarantees by Turkey it was a agreement between greece ,uk and Turkey as quarantors signed agreement . Perhaps it should be updated I agree so that there is a complete separation .

Did it take your wise observation to tell us that it is imperative that Turkey has exactly what Britain wants and did when she was a empire when she conquered cyprus in the 15th century . Same reason different decade . Let's give you the prize for what we all know . It is even more important that Turkey stays in Cyprus militarily . Look at the bigger picture as long as Turkey is in Cyprus you are also protected against the enemies around . Have you looked around lately that isis is getting stronger and stronger ?

[Nikitas]

First is the "there is no going back" meme. We had a minor, yes minor, civil war. Compared to the civil wars of other nations ours was a piffle. All other nations that had civil wars "went back" and have no problems today, here is a sampler: USA, Britain, Spain, Greece, they all "went back". In one battle in the US civil war they had over 20 000 casualties, we had 800 in five years of conflict.

The conflict lasted from late 1963 till 1968. There was not a single casualty between 1968 and 1974.

The major community of the island, the GCs, fought against imposed enosis, proving that by 1974 Enosis was a dead cause supported only by a minority of GCs and the Junta, and even then they did not want to declare it.

Turkey's continued military presence with 650 stoldiers on the island as a bulwark against ISIS and other possible enemies is nonsense. If we really face such threats then keep the National Guard which is more capable than 650 Turkish soldiers. And natrally if there are 650 troops from one side there must be 900 from the other side.

Soldiers in peace time do not sit still. They make plans and map exercises etc, remember the Akritas plan? The Aphrodite plan? The Bairak Bozkur plan? There were concceived by these "peace" and "independence guarantors".

Serious nations, and I assume we intend to set up a serious nation and not some clown state under BBF, do not need gofathers and guarantors. The best thing our three guarnators can do for us is to fuck off, all three of them.

I would go further and say that in the future the three of them should have no embassy in Cyprus, just a jointly organized mission in which their charge d'affaires wil sit in adjoining offices sharing a common secretary and be limited to one official car so that only one of them can travel around the island at any one time. That way we can keep an eye on them and not the other way round.

And one last hint for Musti. It is infinitely easier for GCs to accept an agreement with TCs, than an agreement that involves Turks, whether this presence is in the form of troops, colonists or both. Once the Turkish element is brought into play the issue is no longer intercommunal. I imagine it is the same from your side. You would not want to be involved with mainland Greeks having a say in the south.

[Pyrpolizer]

Here is my point made over and over again . Devided we shall stay. Prior to 1974 . Those that were of age to recall can you please confirm that there was violance between the greeks themselves, there was atrocities committed by both communities . Just to please those that will make a comment that during 1974 there was also attrocities commited by the turkish soldiers . So now we have included everyone here and no one can claim to be Angels here because everyone commited atrocities and those that deny are TRUELY in denial. To me clearly after 1974 and I make it very clear after 1974 do you think up untill now if there were no presence of turkish soldiers would both sides be at peace considering what was occurring prior to 1974 leading up to 1974 ? Do you think that without the intervention or invasion would the intercommunial clashes and the masacres that were occurring amongst both communities . Would all this have just suddenly stopped. Ok I put it another way . What do you think should have been done after those villages of masacred women and children were commited ? I am not saying that the invasion was the right option to take but what do you think would have stopped these troubles and they were real . Once these types of attrocities are commited there is no turning back . Do you think they would have just stopped after a couple of murdered villages ? The nazis only stopped after the invasion and devision . I don't think Turkey should have intervened on her own but collectively some thing had to be done to stop the bloodshed . People seem to ignore this major problem that was occurring . Too many people have been hurt and many more would have if some one did not take action that is deemed as harsh and invasive . One thing I believe is some one had to do some thing to put a stop to it . The cyprus government at the time let us tear each other apart . They let us down and this is our punishment for the behaviours of our forefathers . Enjoy this permanent devision forever . Good luck . The problem is not solved because there is not enough people that want it solved. The ones that least want it solved are the ones that blame others . You will get remarks for example the Cyprus government saying it's all down to Turkey for the solution or you would hear erdogan saying greece needs to be more involved including roc. It's just a blame game and we are all doing the same so untill we acknowledge and accept that we are all the cause of the problem and accept that we need to move on without blaming then we can break those barriers down and get some progress not regress .

You make it look as if we 've had rivers of blood, everyday killings and massacres and atrocities. If it were like that nobody would want to re-unite. There were 3 major time events in Cyprus: One in 1963, one in 1967 and one in 1974. From the 1963 and 1967 700 TCs were killed, from those of 1974 about 6000 GCs lost their lives. Now if you are concerned about the "massacres" Vs the Tcs take their casualties from 1960-1974 and divide by 14. Their casualties is less than those killed in road accidents per year.

It's easy to suggest let's forget all about it after what Turkey did to Gcs, which is basically ethnic cleansing and stealing of properties on top of the murders, rapes, and other atrocities against them, plus the occupying of nearly 40% of their country. To give you an example imagine 2 school boys fighting each other and one day the father of one of the two beats the other to the point of leaving him half crippled.
Now go tell the parents of the crippled one "hey let's forget about it, it's over, look they don't fight anymore"
As long as one side has pending issues, what appears to be "peace" might turn to war anytime.

actually from 1974 todate there has been an economic war going non stop.

[Jerry]

Spot on Nikitas. Fair territorial adjustments would also solve the carpetbagger/settler problem too since neither would be very popular in the southern federated State. I'm convinced that any form of joint administration would ultimately fail, it would only take a few hardliners on one side to kick off the inter-communal conflict again, territorial adjustments should be made on the assumption that one day there could be a divorce. If Turkey insists on guarantees then they should only apply to safeguarding the northern State within its bonudaries.

Turkey pretends to care for the Turkish Cypriots, in reality it wants what Britain has, a base to "protect its southern flank and prevent encirclement by Greece". If we were negotiating with the puppet master directly rather than the puppets I think we would be surprised how much territory they would return to legitimise their hold on the north.

It is not just a insistence for guarantees by Turkey it was a agreement between greece ,uk and Turkey as quarantors signed agreement . Perhaps it should be updated I agree so that there is a complete separation .

Did it take your wise observation to tell us that it is imperative that Turkey has exactly what Britain wants and did when she was a empire when she conquered cyprus in the 15th century . Same reason different decade . Let's give you the prize for what we all know . It is even more important that Turkey stays in Cyprus militarily . Look at the bigger picture as long as Turkey is in Cyprus you are also protected against the enemies around . Have you looked around lately that isis is getting stronger and stronger ?

It was a forced agreement, not voluntarily entered into by Makarios. Get your facts right, Turkey conquered Cyprus in the 16th century. Not so wise yourself - a decade is ten years, a century is 100 years no prizes for you. Protected by Turkey? - you are having a laugh, it won't even "protect" Varosha, it' been happy to watch it fall down for 41 years. The National guard, the EU and even the British (for the time being) are all we need for protection.

[Lordo]

this is the problem of the gcs. they may agree but change their minds later.

are you so stupid a charlui as not to realise that if you did not agree to the power sharing in cyprus would have been split into two then. were all of you born stupid or was it your subsequent education that has caused your stupidity.