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[Kikapu]

being ignorant is no excuse. read and learn so people in the future will not suffer.

Why We Have Become Suicide Bombers

- Understanding Palestinian Terror

By Dr. Eyad Sarraj

Except, it is not the academics, the educated, the politicians and the rich Palestinians who are becoming suicide bombers but the poor brainwashed Palestinians by other Palestinians to push their own political ambitions. Palestinians are not born to be suicidal, but some are lead to become one by their own people.

It is not to excuse what Israel has done or is doing, but that is another issue all together.

where did i claim it is an excuse. there is a difference between reason and excuse. not that i expect an ignoranus like you to understand the difference.

What are you talking about? Where did I mention "an excuse or reasons" relating to the Palestinian suicide bombers?

The point I was making which you have missed big time is, if the Palestinians felt as the author describes the situation for the Palestinians, then not only the poor impressionable young Palestinians would blow themselves up. They will ALL be doing it.

[Paphitis]

So are most of us agreed that this German pilot was a terrorist?

No. Terrorism is politically motivated and there is no evidence that this was.

[Paphitis]

I think we can continue on the main issue without fear of been heavily taxed for just discussing.

I have personally witnessed a suicide, it was one of the most shocking experiences of my life. One of our colleagues went on the roof of the building, totally naked, shouted and cursed at everybody and then jumped down from the 4rth floor right in front of us while about 30 of us were waiting for the company bus. He miraculously survived…
I don’t want to enter into too many details about this person, partly because there might be people in this forum who know him, all I want to point out is that the person exhibited a lot of signs, and he probably had solid reasons to do it. The only thing I never understood was why he jumped totally naked…

Despite all those signs that person exhibited, despite the tragic situation with his family and all the things that happened to him before his suicidal attempt, neither me nor any of my colleagues could predict it. What we were all sure however, was that person was not suitable for any job that would put him in change of other people’s lives.

Now let’s see how the aviation industry deals with such possibilities. Quoting from previous links:

Doctors can order formal psychological tests if they think they are necessary, however, and pilots are expected to report any mental health issues they experience themselves or observe in colleagues.

We ‘ve heard from Paphitis that pilots do report their own problems to their employers and they work things out in a climate of confidentiality and trust.
I doubt however that anyone of them would ever report suspected mental issues of any of their colleagues, unless of course they are absolutely sure about it, and they hold hard evidence.
However the signs from such persons are always there. Imo pilots should be encouraged to do report such suspicions.

While I agree that typical psychological tests along with the other tests pilots go through are very unlikely to reveal anything, I totally disagree with the idea that a suspected person who is indeed at the stage of been sick, can hide himself from an expert Psychoanalyst.

Assuming my colleague was a pilot, I am absolutely certain that if he was ordered to be checked by a Psychoanalyst he wouldn’t be able to hide himself not even for 5 minutes before bursting it all out crying and begging for help...

I have also experienced a suicide in my life. The individual was a PILOT, working for the same company, and I use to socialize with the person not frequently but on a few occasions per year where we would go to a Belgium Pub just for a couple of beers. I did not see it coming. No one did.

Now Pyro, let's be fair about this. 99.9% of pilots do the right thing, and we have processes in place which have been hard fought for over the years by the industry and unions for their protection against all kinds of unique hazards such as fatigue, drugs and alcohol, flight time and duty restrictions and many other things. Every one is pulling the same cart here. We want Aviation to be as a safe as it possibly can be, not just because of passengers but ourselves who spend a lot more time in the air than anyone. Aviation will never be 100% safe from freak events like this one and terrorism or even mechanical failures. We can only reduce risks and the industry has been largely successful at this.

And of course, no one is going to say "I got mental issues". I don't believe this is what any medical professional would say either. The stigma in this day and age still exists and it is probably unfair since about half of society will experience depression at some stage.

Usually, these things revolve around personal issues at home, fatigue, work stress and other things. It's not an exhaustive list. Airlines have their own way of dealing with these issues responsibly and fairly, and it is because pilots deem some fairness in the system, we have been able to construct a very healthy reporting, peer and mentor monitoring system.

So how does the Airline deal with these issues? Responsibly, by engaging medical professionals, counselors and other services. I mentioned the no blame self reporting Drug and Alcohol system (which I think is great). Why punish or discriminate against a worker doing the right thing? 99% of the time, the pilot will return to work as if nothing happened. Better for the pilot, and better for the company that invests so much money in training.

What we are dealing with here, is not a straightforward depression case. I don't know of any people suffering from depression wanting to kill other people. And I don't know how we can possibly detect such individuals either, without putting into jeopardy other systems and processes that I have mentioned above. Sure, find a way to discriminate between those that suffer from temporary and simple depression from the psychopaths, but everyone has basically said that this pilot was depressed and as a result they have lumped about 50% of society with him.

No it's not on!

[GreekIslandGirl]

Despite all those signs that person exhibited, despite the tragic situation with his family and all the things that happened to him before his suicidal attempt, neither me nor any of my colleagues could predict it...

That's because he was a genuine suicidal case and not a psychopathic killer.

I think there is a big difference between 'suicide' (those who take their own lives) and 'psychopathic killers' (those who take others with them or simply kill others).

This pilot would have known he was killing 149 people ... not just himself. So it was not suicide. It was a mass murder, don't you think?.

[GreekIslandGirl]

.... As my old girlfriend use to say "the mind is a fragile thing and can snap at any time".

Cannot agree with that idea at all, I'm afraid, so glad you ditched her (I presume).

The human mind is a tenacious force. Not fragile at all. It takes a lot to break a healthy brain. Even when diseased, it hangs on to moral principles beyond belief.

Supposedly, we only use 10% and look how much can be achieved without touching the reserve of 90%. Even if diseased, you won't kill unless you are a killer. Killers are a different class of human. Hawks and doves. We need better means of discriminating against psychopaths and keep everyone gainfully employed/restrained in whatever suits them best.

Yes of course, but how many times you have heard when someone does something so terrible that shocks the whole community and all saying, " he/she was such a loving person" and then, WHAM!

"Such a loving person" is usually the impression of neighbors and old ladies who just exchange hellos and good mornings Kiks. People who spend a lot of time together can never miss a psychologically ill person, the signs are numerous, the least they would make up is strong suspicion that something's wrong with that person.He may manage to hide himself for a few days, maybe a few weeks, no more...

Back in the 70's, a place where I worked for few years which had it's own cafeteria and a bar where a lot of drinking went on lunchtimes, one of the guys who worked there after having had drinks with his colleagues on a Friday lunchtime, put a pipe from the exhaust pipe to the car and rolled the windows up in his garage. Nobody knew anything was wrong with him a day before he killed himself.

Yup, he killed himself. Himself only. A genuine suicide. These people need our help. However, they are the most discrete - keep themselves to themselves. Sad. Hard to detect. But the psychopaths? They kill others. They show outward signs because they want attention.

[Paphitis]

Back in the 70's, a place where I worked for few years which had it's own cafeteria and a bar where a lot of drinking went on lunchtimes, one of the guys who worked there after having had drinks with his colleagues on a Friday lunchtime, put a pipe from the exhaust pipe to the car and rolled the windows up in his garage. Nobody knew anything was wrong with him a day before he killed himself.

Yup, he killed himself. Himself only. A genuine suicide. These people need our help. However, they are the most discrete - keep themselves to themselves. Sad. Hard to detect. But the psychopaths? They kill others. They show outward signs because they want attention.

I don't believe you can detect any so called psychopaths that easily. If that were the case, this individual would have been detected in Psychometric Testing, Cockpit Resource Management Training and other group based team and leadership building exercises which are done frequently by most Airlines.

There are actually many discreet ways in which Airlines actually monitors its workforce, particular Flight Crews (Flights Attendants are included), but I just can't see how the Airline, or a medical Professional can detect a so called Psychopath lurking in our rank and file. I just can't see it which is why I think all this talk is dangerous for people having just normal everyday problems requiring some time off or counseling for instance. We have processes that need to be protected because it has stopped unfit pilots from commencing a duty. And these cases are actually quite frequent compared to events like this one.

[Paphitis]

We also have no blame fatigue. A pilot is able to call Operations and call FATIGUE just before his duty/flight. So what happens!

Nothing other than being stood down from duty. Operations call out a standby pilot to take over the shift.

Now obviously, there might be very deep reasons why this pilot is fatigued. Maybe he split with his girlfriend or something. maybe his dog or cat died. It can be anything. It could be something the company did, such as being sent to the Simulator for a red eye session lasting 7 hours only 2 nights before. Yes, these sims are so busy and in so much demand, they operate 24/7.

The pilot has to fill out an incident report outlining the reasons why and this report goes to safety. from there, the pilot can vbe offered assistance if necessary or even time off.

[Kikapu]

Despite all those signs that person exhibited, despite the tragic situation with his family and all the things that happened to him before his suicidal attempt, neither me nor any of my colleagues could predict it...

That's because he was a genuine suicidal case and not a psychopathic killer.

I think there is a big difference between 'suicide' (those who take their own lives) and 'psychopathic killers' (those who take others with them or simply kill others).

This pilot would have known he was killing 149 people ... not just himself. So it was not suicide. It was a mass murder, don't you think?.

It is clear that killing of innocent people while an individual deliberately kills themselves is murder of others in the true sense, however, one does not need to be a psychopath to have killed others while in killing themselves. The co-pilot could have committed suicide anytime anyplace not involving anyone else, but he chose not to do that. Why? There are few reasons why that did not happen as it did in many other cases where individuals killing themselves only and not other. He may not have thought about it seriously until he actually did it. It may have to do with protecting his family, friends and colleagues from shame by killing himself in a suicide, or perhaps his family not being able to collect if and any life insurance monies. A plane crash can cover all these issues in a rather very selfish way. The fact that he put the plane into a gentle decent to avoid raising alarm in the passenger cabin and to the captain may have been his attempt to cover his suicide.

It may all be semantics, but what he did was a suicide-murder, as suppose to murder-suicide, which is more common in domestic cases. My problem with this whole case is, when did this co-pilot know what he was going to do in what he did. Was it opportunity because the captain left the cockpit or was it "his mind snapped" at that moment? I don't think we will ever know if he never left a suicide note or jihadist rhetoric or some misguided religious beliefs about glorious life after death, or did he get high on certain drugs while the captain was out of the cockpit to make his intended/unintended departure from this world much easier, less painful and more courageous in what he was about to do and did.

Personally, authorities connecting few dots on the co-pilots life before the crash are never ever going to give us the full picture in what really went on with him in his mind. Most will just accept he deliberately crashed the plane taking 150 lives with it and causing further pain in the lives of thousands of others who knew them and other will want to know more why it happened.

[Pyrpolizer]

I have also experienced a suicide in my life. The individual was a PILOT, working for the same company, and I use to socialize with the person not frequently but on a few occasions per year where we would go to a Belgium Pub just for a couple of beers. I did not see it coming. No one did.

Yeah Kikapu mentioned the same thing. It looked rather strange to me that people who commit suicide might not exhibit any signs early enough, so i did a quick search over the net. The truth is the majority (75%) do exhibit clearly identifiable signs

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-warning-signs.html

It should be noted that some people who die by suicide do not show any suicide warning signs.But about 75 percent of those who die by suicide do exhibit some suicide warning signs,

My point is that this particular incident could have been prevented, although I understand the difficulties in setting up rules in the aviation industry that might lead to false positives, stigma etc.

[Pyrpolizer]

Despite all those signs that person exhibited, despite the tragic situation with his family and all the things that happened to him before his suicidal attempt, neither me nor any of my colleagues could predict it...

That's because he was a genuine suicidal case and not a psychopathic killer.

I think there is a big difference between 'suicide' (those who take their own lives) and 'psychopathic killers' (those who take others with them or simply kill others).

This pilot would have known he was killing 149 people ... not just himself. So it was not suicide. It was a mass murder, don't you think?.

Well all I know from is that suicide is actually an attack. There are persons who direct their attack to other people or animals, and others who direct it to themselves. A psychopath is the one who hits the limits of those attacks regardless of whether they are directed to himself or to others. Hitler is an example of a person who did both.
If you do a quick search over the net, you will find that many suicides include both types of "attacks".

Imo both the one who kills himself as well as the other who kills other people along with himself, are just one of the 3 versions of Psychopaths.(The 3rd being the one who kills other people but not himself)