Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Paphitis,
Do you know whether or not when the Germanwings plane hit the mountain, did it explode into a ball of fire or not? From what I've seen of the crash site, it does not seem to appear that there was any fire or any smoke from smouldering debris. Helicopters found the crash site fairly quickly and yet I do not remember seeing any smoke at all, let alone any fire. Just curious.

As for having any new regulation to have the pilots go through psychological test every time they have their routine physical checks and with the new rule to have "2 in the cockpit", it will mean having ALL the flight attendants also go through psychological test frequently since one of them will need to be in the cockpit when one of the pilots leave to take a piss, if there are only two pilots on the flight deck. The regulators will need to be very careful not to get too carried away by adding more stress onto the flight crewmembers than they already have at the present time.

Kikapu, the aircraft hit at a speed of about 700km/hr, hence the devastation seen at the crash site. Bodies were not recovered, oh body parts.

I am sure there would have been some fire, but JETA1 has an extremely high flashpoint. You can throw a cigarette into a bucket full of the stuff and it will still not ignite unless there were a lot of fumes.

And yes, there are so many gaps and potential new hazards for such things as the "rule of 2". What if the Flight Attendant just split for their boyfriend and wanted to kill 150 passengers? You are correct in saying that thatIght Attendants will also need to go through the same assessments which will also bring into play the much larger Transport Workers Union. AFAP and TWU means a huge headache for the fly by nighter legislators.

When we saw the planes hitting the world trade centers on 9/11, doing about the same speeds as the Germanwings aircraft, there were huge explosions. Then again, there were many things to cause sparks at the buildings, such as metal contruction frames and electricity vs. just the mountain.

Yes but the explosion could be as a result of other substances or materials from the building itself or even electrical.

But eventually the JETA1 will ignite when temperatures exceed 800 degrees Celsius which they did.

No hard and fast rules here. But JETA1 has a flash point of about 800 degrees Celsius and petrol only about 143 degrees Celsius.

[miltiades]

Just back from Belarus !!! Made it before the pilots ...go on strike !! Highly paid pros do not generally go on strike .
All that concerns me is my safety and that of my fellow passengers , the aviation industry will take steps to ensure the absolute safety of passengers and crew .

One sick deranged man committed the most atrocious
act , somehow he slipped through the net causing such a horrible crime !

[Paphitis]

Just back from Belarus !!! Made it before the pilots ...go on strike !! Highly paid pros do not generally go on strike .
All that concerns me is my safety and that of my fellow passengers , the aviation industry will take steps to ensure the absolute safety of passengers and crew .

One sick deranged man committed the most atrocious
act , somehow he slipped through the net causing such a horrible crime !

Pilots go on strike all the time.

Just 1 week ago, Lufthansa were on strike. This action still has not been resolved and the Pilots there are extremely well paid.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/lufthansa-p ... m2j1t.html

Some years ago, there was a General Strike in Australia involving ALL Airlines. All aircraft were on the ground with the only aircraft flying being International Carriers and the Military. It was so massive, it bought down the entire Australian Government to its knees.

Industrial Action is only going to get more common in LCC.

Strikes can be safety related too. For instance, Pilot Unions can strike over the Germanwings debacle but that will only hurt the Airlines, and they are batting on the same side as the Unions on this. Unions actually have a good relationship with the major Airlines these days as Airline Executives are eager to keep the Unions on side. Pilot membership within these Unions has traditionally been very high. Unions even have representatives working out of offices offered by the Airlines.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

I think you have the flash point of Jet A1 (effectively) Kerosine ...... wrong? The flash point is around 38C ..... I think what you are relating to is the adiabatic burn temperature in Degrees Kelvin? Auto ignition, i.e. without a naked flame to ignite it, just heat energy, is around 245C.

What caused the fire ball on 9/11 was some of the fuel vapour igniting on impact and then evaporating the rest of the fuel, to a great extent outside the building. Any remaining liquid fuel would have poured down the lift shafts, which we know it did because the fire crews described lifts coming down to the ground floor with burnt/burning people in them. On 9/11 the fire that followed the impact, was mainly office furniture/partitions etc. the fuel fire would have lasted for maybe 4-5 minutes maximum. Hence the black smoke = incomplete combustion. You don’t normally get clouds of smoke from a jet engine ............ unless there is something seriously wrong!

When this aircraft hit the ground, more or less the same thing would have happened. The tanks ruptured on impact, the fuel would have ignited as a ‘fuel mist’ (i.e. Mixed with air) and would have lasted for just the time it took for the fuel to burn off ...... a few minutes. After that time it would have been brush fires and luggage burning ...... but is was well disbursed by the impact at that speed. When you look at the pictures on TV of the crash site it is blackened and scorched.

Had it been a piston engine aircraft ..... it would have exploded like a bomb due to very rapid ignition. Jet A1 is a slow burning fuel ..... it does not explode when you drop a cigarette into it. Just don’t do that with Avgas ......... it will explode in a massive fire ball.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

I think you have the flash point of Jet A1 (effectively) Kerosine ...... wrong? The flash point is around 38C ..... I think what you are relating to is the adiabatic burn temperature in Degrees Kelvin? Auto ignition, i.e. without a naked flame to ignite it, just heat energy, is around 245C.

What caused the fire ball on 9/11 was some of the fuel vapour igniting on impact and then evaporating the rest of the fuel, to a great extent outside the building. Any remaining liquid fuel would have poured down the lift shafts, which we know it did because the fire crews described lifts coming down to the ground floor with burnt/burning people in them. On 9/11 the fire that followed the impact, was mainly office furniture/partitions etc. the fuel fire would have lasted for maybe 4-5 minutes maximum. Hence the black smoke = incomplete combustion. You don’t normally get clouds of smoke from a jet engine ............ unless there is something seriously wrong!

When this aircraft hit the ground, more or less the same thing would have happened. The tanks ruptured on impact, the fuel would have ignited as a ‘fuel mist’ (i.e. Mixed with air) and would have lasted for just the time it took for the fuel to burn off ...... a few minutes. After that time it would have been brush fires and luggage burning ...... but is was well disbursed by the impact at that speed. When you look at the pictures on TV of the crash site it is blackened and scorched.

Had it been a piston engine aircraft ..... it would have exploded like a bomb due to very rapid ignition. Jet A1 is a slow burning fuel ..... it does not explode when you drop a cigarette into it. Just don’t do that with Avgas ......... it will explode in a massive fire ball.

Yes you're quite correct. The fuel Vapour will ignite with a single spark.

JETA1 has a flash point of 38. It has an adiabatic burn temperature of just over 1000 degrees Celsius.

The up shot is that you can throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of JETA1 and if the fumes don't ignite then the fuel will extinguish the cigarette. If you threw a cigarette into a bucket of AVGAS or regular petrol, then the fuel will ignite.

There are too many variables to be making any assumptions about the JETA1. For the Vapours to ignite, there would need to be an ignition source. It's unchartered territory and not that important at this time. But the investigation will look into the amount of fuel on impact and what became of the fuel. In all likelihood, the fuel would have burned out down the side of the mountain.

Mothers are signs of it having burned and torched the immediate vicinity. JEFA1 is not volatile enough to cause an explosion unless there were a lot of vapours around which could cause the explosion.

[Pyrpolizer]

Yes but the explosion could be as a result of other substances or materials from the building itself or even electrical.

But eventually the JETA1 will ignite when temperatures exceed 800 degrees Celsius which they did.

No hard and fast rules here. But JETA1 has a flash point of about 800 degrees Celsius and petrol only about 143 degrees Celsius.

Flash point 800 degrees C ?? Erm.. i don't think so.Jeta1 is basically a Kerosene type fuel.From memory kerosene's flash point is around 40 deg C at best JETA1's flash point should be no more than 60 deg C... compared with gasoline 's flash point which is below zero.
Notice Flash point is the temperature at which it produces vapors that can ignite by a spark

Are you confusing the term flash point with something else? These are all flammable liquids, attach a flame to them they all burn -and if the fuel is contained in metallic or even glass containers they will cause explosion.

[Paphitis]

Yes but the explosion could be as a result of other substances or materials from the building itself or even electrical.

But eventually the JETA1 will ignite when temperatures exceed 800 degrees Celsius which they did.

No hard and fast rules here. But JETA1 has a flash point of about 800 degrees Celsius and petrol only about 143 degrees Celsius.

Flash point 800 degrees C ?? Erm.. i don't think so.Jeta1 is basically a Kerosene type fuel.From memory kerosene's flash point is around 40 deg C at best JETA1's flash point should be no more than 60 deg C... compared with gasoline 's flash point which is below zero.
Notice Flash point is the temperature at which it produces vapors that can ignite by a spark

Are you confusing the term flash point with something else? These are all flammable liquids, attach a flame to them they all burn -and if the fuel is contained in metallic or even glass containers they will cause explosion.

No I got it confused with the adiabatic burn temperature - the point at which the liquid will combust.

In actual fact, I was looking for Auto ignition temperatures of the fuel and it turns out that JETA1 is about 750 degrees Fahrenheit. Petrol is much less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature

Yes I agree I made an error. Petrol has a flash point below zero and JET is around 38 degrees.

[Pyrpolizer]

No I got it confused with the adiabatic burn temperature - the point at which the liquid will combust.

OK I thought so…

Now the reason we have fires at collisions is this:
The moving object (be it car, train, aeroplane) has huge kinetic energy which upon collision becomes heat. How much heat? Well the temperature of the nose of the plane should far exceed the melting point of aluminium upon impact. Trow some JETA1 at that, and it will immediately evaporate. Add a spark to it, it's all in flames... rocks themselves often produce sparks...

It may even sometimes even reach combustion point temperature that Paphitis mentioned before at which point you don't even need a spark

[Pyrpolizer]

Woops I just noticed RH posted on the same issue. Apologies for replying without reading the whole topic.

[supporttheunderdog]

From the very start it was ESTABLISHED that one sick pilot committed this hideous acts. Personally I don't give a toss if the investigators did or did not follow correct procedures. The victims are the 149 innocent passengers and their bereaved families. Who cares if the correct, according to Paphitis, procedures were followed or not. One mentally unstable sick bastard decided to end his miserable life and that of 149 passengers. To hell with protocol and the nonsense spouted by Paphitis, passengers have a right to demand that a fucking psycho is not in charge of their lives.
The media reported correctly. Paphitis, you are out of order, nobody gives a shit whether the media or the investigators were premature in their announcements. The fact of the matter is that one sick bastard, hoodwinked the system, a system that has to be vigorously tightened, a system that demands and expects absolute safety. Paphitis seems to be more concerned with splitting hairs than the real issue, in that any sick individual can again commit what this sick fucker did.

Well look at it this way Milti. Suppose the airlines so as you suggest, and the pilots disagree and go on international strike.
Then the problem of how you return from Belarus will be all yours.
You will most probably need to take ship. It won't take you 3 hours to return to London but 3 weeks

Since Belarus is landlocked, ship is not an option. Overland Its about 2200 KM. Three or four days leisurely drive, or about 28 hours by train. The old codger is home anyway.

The problem is that with several likely incidents of murder-suicide by air-crew, the airlines and the authorities have to be seen to be doing something, albeit that the number of incidents is small and the percentage chance of being affected is very small indeed, and that there are no foolproof methods of weeding out the lunatics. I think the aircrew would loose a lot of respect among the masses if they want on strike because it was perceived they were against safety measures introduced following this incident, whether or not the safety measures proposed were sensible or not.

However what alternative rational proposals does anyone have, to reduce the risk further?