Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

Also, can lysi tell me what his views are on this? As he seems to make a few comments and fails to get properly involved in the debate.

[Eric dayi]

And If I am not wrong,you are under the misconception that Eric is a GC.
That is a dangerous mistake to make,as you will soon find out for yourself

Minor mistakes can be forgiven Birkibrisli but major mistakes like demanding that I "abandon" my Turkishness just to become a "Cypriot" can not. I am a Cypriot, a Turkish Cypriot to be exact and I know that the Turkish bit came from Turkey and very unlike you I have no intentions of forgetting that.

[/quote]

[BirKibrisli]

Eric wrote:

The trouble with you, mate, is that you only think about what is best for you and what you would like to see. You probably never think about what will or might happen if two people who hate each other were forced to live together. If I remember rightly (maybe I am wrong) you mentioned that you are divorced, I am just sitting here thinking what your reaction would be if I, and others, tried to force you to return to your wife? Would you say, yeah ok or would you tell everyone that they are stupid to even suggest it? You might tell me that you going back to your wife and the GC’s and TC’s living together are two different things but I would say they are not. If two people (you and your x-wife) can’t learn to live together for the sake of your children (if you have any) then how the hell do you expect two nations who have been hating each others guts for centuries to live a peaceful happily ever after life without killing each other is beyond me.

Eric,
Believe it or not I understand where you are coming from,and I respect your right to have the opinions you do.All I want is for you to respect my right to my opinions.We don't have to agree on anything,except perhaps that we do not agree on anything.
Your analogy of a married couple is, of course,absurd.Nobody is asking you to share a bed with GCs,or to agree on how you will raise your children together,where and how to live,what to eat,who to have as friends,how to treat your parents and extended family,what job you should have,where you will go for holidays,when and how you should stop smoking,who snores more at night,whether you should have been nice to your former girlfriend or not...The level of intimacy in a family and in society in general is just not comperable.
To live peacefully in a society all you need to do is to respect others human rights,be civilised and tolerant,and show some empathy and compassion for your compatriots.It is as simple as that.No complicated emotional entanglements,no petty jealousies,no hidden agendas as it exists in a marriage.But you must have self confidence and belief in yourself and in your fellow humans that you are capable of learning lessons from the past mistakes,and become a better person for it.

Eric wrote:

You, mate, have fallen for the lies of the GC’s that there is a difference between Turks from Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots. You have swollen the lies hook, line and sinker. It is what they want you to believe in order for you to hate Turkey and demand that Turkey withdraws it’s Army out of Cyprus

I don't have to depend on the GCs to tell me there is a difference between Turks from Turkey and Turkish Cypriots.I know that for sure.
You know how I know Eric?Because my ex-wife was a Turk from Turkey.
Enough said???


Eric wrote:

If you are willing then here’s what you need to do in the South. You must tell the GC’s that you have abandoned your Turkishness and that you are a Cypriot. You must demand that they also abandon their Greeknes. You must buy land. You must merry a GC. You must vote in the local and Governmental elections. You must demand the same rights as everyone else in the South. You must also demand that a common language is spoken, English (maybe) and not Turkish or Greek. You must try to be elected as the PM of the so-called “RoC” or maybe even as a simple MP or similar. In fact you must do all the things that you believe would be possible for you and other “true Cypriots” to do should your wish become a reality. I think you get the general idea, mate, so how about it, are you willing to become a “guinea pig” or would you prefer to force the two communities to try it out for you while you are safely tucked away in Oz?

I don't think I need to abandon my Turkishness to become a Cypriot,Eric.
I need to put it in perpective.It is my background,an accident of history,like all ethnicities.If I had been born a few miles away I would've been a GC.And if a GC were born a few miles this or that way,he/she would've been a TC.So what?Would it make me less of a person to be a GC,or him/her more of a person for being a TC?Put your hand on your heart,and answer this question honestly.Because in this question you will find the answer to the person you are,or have become...

[Kifeas]

And If I am not wrong,you are under the misconception that Eric is a GC.
That is a dangerous mistake to make,as you will soon find out for yourself

Minor mistakes can be forgiven Birkibrisli but major mistakes like demanding that I "abandon" my Turkishness just to become a "Cypriot" can not. I am a Cypriot, a Turkish Cypriot to be exact and I know that the Turkish bit came from Turkey and very unlike you I have no intentions of forgetting that.

[/quote]

Although I decided to avoid discussing anything with you, I feel compelled to comment on at least this one. Who on earth has told you that you have to abandon your Turkishness if you accept that at the same time Cyprus is your homeland, a separate and independed state among all the other countries of the world, and be a holder of its nationality /citizenship? Did you have to abandon your Turkishness all those years that you are living in the UK and hold the British passport /citizenship? Did anyone say to you that you are not allowed to speak your native language, or not to go to a Turkish school in London (assuming there is one) or not to publish and /or not to read your Turkish language newspapers? If these things did not happen to you in the UK, how on earth do you see it happening in Cyprus, in which case not only you will have all the above rights but in addition to them your native (Turkish) language will be one of the official languages?

I just cannot hope seeing how narrow minted and paranoid some people are. One must be a very messed up person indeed to have such paranoid ideas.

Dayi, we are living in the 21st century! Wake up for god sake! The entire world has become just one village (global village as they call it.) No one will prohibit you to function as a fully fletched citizen, together with your Turkish cultural background. No one will prohibit you to send your children to Turkey for university education, or to fly the Turkish flag outside your house if this is what is the most important thing for you to do. You have to learn to distinguish between your "ethnic" or cultural origins as a Turk or Turkish Cypriot, or a Greek Cypriot for this matter, and your citizenship status as a Cypriot national. The two are not the same, nor they are conflicting to each other!

[BirKibrisli]

Simon wrote:

am suprised that you say you don't believe in proportional representation, because aren't you worried this will lead to TCs being left out in the cold? I actually to an extent agree with you on this, because that way, people can vote for who they want, Turkish or Greek and not be told you must elect 6 Greek this and 4 Turkish that etc. That way will emphasise the divide, the former way would begin to break down barriers.

No,simon.I believe,as you too say, that proportional representation will only emphasise our differences for ever.I am all for playing down our turkishness or greekness.After the initial shock is over,and we realise we are one nation after all(for me the concept of a "nation" is not all about common language and religion,it is more about common history,common traditions,common interests,common culture etc) we will vote for the person who shares our political ideology irrespective of our ethnicity.
There will be parties with Greek or Turkish orientation,but I believe they will be minority parties.The majority of people will support pan-Cypriot parties which best represent their interests.
But before that can happen we need an interim solution to allow trust to build.My idea is to have a BBF solution which will allow all the refugees to return to their homes if they want to.There will be no limit to the numbers who move to the North,if they can prove ownership or birth rights.People will exercise their political rights where they live,without any proportional representation.And if in 25 years time the GCs become the majority in the Notrh and they vote to abolish the Turkish Federated State and join the South,so be it...

[Eric dayi]

Kiefeas, LOL, you decided to avoid discussing anything with me but felt compelled to comment on at least this one? There's only one thing I can reply to this, keep up with the conversation before you jump in. I suggest that you read Birkibrisli's postings from last week(?). Even you might not like what he suggested/demanded.

[Alexis]

Fair points Alexis, of course nobody "knows", but I've read as much I can find about both Greece, Cyprus and the Balkans in general from the period from 1878-1945 and think my premise is way above 50/50 that the British rule gave the Cypriots a chance for self government.

Militarily, Cyprus is too important to the Turks to allow a potentially hostile nation to control it, proof of this importance can be seen in the way the Acheson planwas put together.

When the first British administrator came to Cyprus he refused ti raise taxes for the Turks as he was supposed to, saying that "Cyprus is the poorest place in the British Empire" bearing in mind the countries then under British rule, things must have been pretty bad.
My main point was that the British rule of Cyprus wasn't the terrible thing it's often been made to be. On this point we seem to roughly agree in principle, although not to what extent.

I do agree for the most part. Cyprus was in very bad shape economically in 1878 and Britain helped improve life for Cypriots. And I don't think British Rule was that bad aside from it being a colonial rule, which by today's (and even the 1950s) standards is never a 'good' thing when it is against the wishes of the population.

Also, you are right that Cyprus is militarily in a very strategic position leaving it vulnerable to exploitation by large powers. But, just because Turkey is a large power, a former ruler of the island, and Cyprus has a sizeable Turkish minority, for me this is not enough to allow Turkey a stake in Cyprus' affairs. Turkey can and should be a favoured country, as should Greece but Cyprus should be run by Cypriots with as little interference from outside as possible.

[Kifeas]

Kiefeas, LOL, you decided to avoid discussing anything with me but felt compelled to comment on at least this one? There's only one thing I can reply to this, keep up with the conversation before you jump in. I suggest that you read Birkibrisli's postings from last week(?). Even you might not like what he suggested/demanded.

Such as what? Can you quote what you think I may not like from what Birkibrisli said?

[Eric dayi]

Kiefeas, LOL, you decided to avoid discussing anything with me but felt compelled to comment on at least this one? There's only one thing I can reply to this, keep up with the conversation before you jump in. I suggest that you read Birkibrisli's postings from last week(?). Even you might not like what he suggested/demanded.

Such as what? Can you quote what you think I may not like from what Birkibrisli said?

Such as this, maybe?

I don't have a hidden agenda,as far as I can tell.
My agenda is open.I want Cyprus to reunify in a way that will please the majority of Cypriots,be they TC or GC background.I believe this could only happen if we abandon our ethnic identities (or at least play it down) and forge a unique Cypriot nation.
To this end I will not hesitate to point out what I see(as a reasonably intelligent and sensitive human being) as obstacles to this course.
The number one obstacle is the presence of Turkish soldiers,and the existance of the TRNC.I said elsewhere that I think Turkey's intervention in 1974 was justified and lawful as one of the guarantors of the independence of the RoC.They should have stayed only as long as it took to get the TCs and GCs back together under the 1960 constitution,and go home reserving the fight to intervene again if something similar happened.I and most Cypriots would have been very grateful had that happened. But after all these years,and after lived more than 50 years on this earth,and having lived away from the heat of the conflict for some 35 years,I believe Turkey's interests are no longer those of the TCs.
Turkey is now following her own agenda (as they should) and using the TRNC only as a pawn,working towards the total assimilation of the TCs into the mainland culture.I believe our only chance of survival as ourselves is by abandoning the notion of Turkishness(which in practice means being falsely nationalistic and proud of a history that is no more glorifed that anybody else's history in the region).Being Turkish these days means having a siege mentality driven by a chauvenistic notion of cultural or racial supremecy.This is what I reject.I believe we can only be happy and at peace as a community if we acknowledge our essence as Cypriots,a unique culture and people who are comfortable with who they are.

Are you ready to "abandon" your Greekness and become just a "Cypriot" or would you rather stay a Greek Cypriot?

[bg_turk]

Although I decided to avoid discussing anything with you, I feel compelled to comment on at least this one. Who on earth has told you that you have to abandon your Turkishness if you accept that at the same time Cyprus is your homeland, a separate and independed state among all the other countries of the world, and be a holder of its nationality /citizenship? Did you have to abandon your Turkishness all those years that you are living in the UK and hold the British passport /citizenship? Did anyone say to you that you are not allowed to speak your native language, or not to go to a Turkish school in London (assuming there is one) or not to publish and /or not to read your Turkish language newspapers? If these things did not happen to you in the UK, how on earth do you see it happening in Cyprus, in which case not only you will have all the above rights but in addition to them your native (Turkish) language will be one of the official languages?

I just cannot hope seeing how narrow minted and paranoid some people are. One must be a very messed up person indeed to have such paranoid ideas.

Dayi, we are living in the 21st century! Wake up for god sake! The entire world has become just one village (global village as they call it.) No one will prohibit you to function as a fully fletched citizen, together with your Turkish cultural background. No one will prohibit you to send your children to Turkey for university education, or to fly the Turkish flag outside your house if this is what is the most important thing for you to do. You have to learn to distinguish between your "ethnic" or cultural origins as a Turk or Turkish Cypriot, or a Greek Cypriot for this matter, and your citizenship status as a Cypriot national. The two are not the same, nor they are conflicting to each other!

Fine in theory, impossible in practice.

Every state is prepared to do whatever it takes to safeguard its territorial integrity, even to violate the human rights of its own citizens. The RoC will not hesitate to violate the human rights of TCs if it feels threatened again, and this will certainly happen sometime in the future.

Without doing what Turkey does to the kurds, what Greece does to the slavs, and what Bulgaria did to us, the RoC will not be able to function as one integral state. It will either face another disintegration into a similar form as today with more bloodshed and loss of human life, or it will be fully united where TCs will voluntarily abandon their own culture.