Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Finally, Piratis, I would accept exactly what you propose.

Thanks for clearing this up. This shows that you are willing to compromise what you believe to be ideal for a compromise that would bring human rights, security, peace and democracy for everybody.

Some months ago I would have asked you to drop the maximalistic demands. However today I believe you are needed in order to remind some people were the "middle ground" is.

[cypezokyli]

we ve been over this many times zan.
in the majority - minority cases, and so long we both feel like that there is no "fair" or "right" solution.
also since we are still afraid of each other that our "old secret agendas" against each other are still alive, we will be afraid that you will overuse the veto and you will be afraid that we are going to take deisions against you in case of one-man-one-vote.

both proposals can prove worlkable or not. the one that each of us supports has to do with the side he was born at.

imo, i am not sure that there exists a middle solution. one that i proposed in another thread was not considered as "middle" so...the way i see it, one of the two communities should decide to trust the other and accept the other proposal. this problem cannot be solved isolated bc of the difficulty of coming up with a "middle solution". as a concequence i believe it can be only be seen in the form of a "package deal". that is for example , one gets the voting system and the other...land, or lower degree of bizonality..., or the other way around, higher degree of bizonality with a looser bi-communality, or the armies or the settlers or one of those, you all know what i mean.

[zan]

What I'm asking for is point by point (not all the issues just the ones you think important) comparison. Tax, Transport, Foreign affairs etc. What effects one will effect the other. How can one separate agenda’s for ones own people. I am not asking for a separate idea, I am asking for the pitfalls of a fifty/fifty split to be made clear to me. I am not politically minded in that way.

[BirKibrisli]

Simon,
I hope you realise you are playing the tune of those like Zan above who want the permanent division of the island.If you insist on enosis (which is union with Greece) than the Tcs will insist on Taksim(joining part of the island to Turkey).And even I would not blame them.Cyprus is an independent nation made up of two peoples of Greek and Turkish background(The other smaller minorities please forgive me for not including you for sake of simplicity).Our troubles began because powers that be were able to exploit our chauvinism and blind nationalism,and managed to make us believe we were two different nations who could not possibly live together.Now you want to stir up the same shite,and hope that will lead to a just and lasting solution for both communities.Give us a break.Don't insult our intelligence.Try to realise that the solution lies in our ability to forge one Cypriot nation from the human beings who call Cyprus home.Anything else will mean more pain and suffering for our children's children's children's children's..........to infinity.

Birk,
I think we are all wasting too much energy and grey matter in trying to deal with the ramblings of some people like the ones you mentioned and not only (from both communities.) I have come to realise that most of these people are so ignorant that I doubt they can locate the anus of their own body, set aside to understand what is happening in Cyprus and in the rest of the world. These are people who probably never opened a book or even a newspaper in order to read and learn anything in relation to the political affairs and agendas inside and outside their country. They are just living in their own separate universe and dreaming. What else could someone say for a GC who talks about Enosis in year 2005?

Kifeas,
I too feel very frustrated sometimes,and want to stop talking to people with ridiculous propositions.But it doesn't last long.It is people like Simon and Eric Dayi we should be talking to nonstop,because people with ideas like theirs are what is stopping us from uniting our country.These guys probably don't realise that their identities are all wrapped up in their chauvinistic,blind nationalism.Their ancestors were Greeks or Turks,and that will define them till kingdom come.I can say to Simon "Okey mate,my ancestors were from central Asia where my cousins the Tatars and Ozbeks and Kazaks live now.They are in the majority so I want them to vote to unite with Turkey and half of Cyprus,so we can be one big nation joined together by one motherland.I was once a turk I will always be a Turk".And he still won't see the absurdity of cementing one's identity for eternity.I don't put Zan in the same basket as Simon and Eric Dayi.He is a special case.He is well read and cultured,and is open to change.I think his traumatic childhood experiences has left a deep wound inside him,it will take a lot to make him feel secure again living with GCs.
As for Piratis,I totally understand his frustration,but he is forgetting that what really counts is the end result.The means are only the means to get to the end.If we are to have a peaceful and prosperous united homeland Piratis will have to be a bit more flexible about his "democratic" values.
Democracy was never a perfect system at best of times,and we need to bend some of those principles to accomodate our special needs as two community living as one nation.
Anyway,I know it is not polite to talk about others openly as if they don't exist,but I hope they won't mind.I am only trying to save time and energy and not reply to all their posts seperately.
And Eric Dayi,if you are reading this,my anger only lasts about 10 minutes maximum,so no hard feelings on my part.As Piratis says we need you and Simon to show us where the middle ground ought to be.
Nothing personal,mate.

[Simon]

You know, you guys keep proving my point for me. Birkibrisli you say it is people like me that stop our island uniting, that is sooo rich. It is people like you that stop this because you want everything your own way and are not willing to compromise. I take the hard stand from the 50s, (a stand which from the 50s Turkey still keeps, in fact they want more, AND MY VIEWS ARE OLD-FASHIONED?) I show my willingness to negotiate on the issue, and still you and Zan want to take more. I notice that you don't comment on the proposal for shared power, you just manipulate to make it look like I am unreasonable and irrational. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT IS IRRATIONAL, A 50:50 split, for a 78% to 18% (4% are others) difference in population.

This is the funniest part, Zan being Turkish is well-cultured and well read, Eric and I are seemingly absurd and Piratis needs to be more flexible about his democratic values. What are coincidence that the latter three are all GC. Further, Zan has a deep wound inside him. I can't help to find this strange, considering you fail to mention the 200,000 GCs that have a massive wound inside of them, which includes my grandparents and therefore includes me, as I feel it with them.

It seems to me Birkibrisli that it is you that needs to be more flexible and Turkey to drop its hard line stance from the 50s.

[cypezokyli]

you are out of your mind.
eric is not a gc :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
therefore

once again

your accusation needs reformulation. (just like that unique one : the greek junta happened bc cyprus was not united with greece )


not to mention that you are the ONLY gc up to now accusing bir of nationalism.

(hey simon, tomorrow some gc are going to gather in ledras asking for the wall to be removed. are you coming? or do you want it to stay?)

[Simon]

The whole basis of negotiation is for BOTH sides to compromise and meet somewhere in the middle, OR ELSE THERE WILL NEVER BE A SOLUTION. I thought you so-called well read people would realise this. Therefore, if the TCs keep pursuing their extreme demands of 50:50, I will pursue mine of 100% to Greeks. By the way, if you look at the population ratio, the 100% to the Greeks seems more reasonable than 50:50 anyway. If you will not compromise, why should I?

You people who say enosis is just ridiculous, I have only heard one reason, (apart from the Tukish position) the EU factor, which I don't believe is too big a stumbling block. Cyprus will still be a part of the EU and therefore will still have many benefits. Although, it will lose some as it will not be an independent state. However, Cyprus could become an autonomous state within Greece, therefore still having its own Parliament, making its own laws etc, similar to Scotland within the United Kingdom. On this basis, Cyprus could negotiate to still keep some of its benefits it has today. It will also gain further benefits from being a part of Greece. Greece and GCs in my opinion still see themselves as one, this is proven by the fact that they signed a Treaty declaring that any future attack on Cyprus would be an attack on Greece itself. See, on this basis, I could continue to pursue enosis. However, people like ME would compromise to see the island united. The TCs won't? Now who is stopping unification?

The island will never be unified until the TC drop their 50:50 claims.

[Eric dayi]

Birkibrisli,

What do you want me to say? Do you want me to say that people like you upset me? Do you want me to say that it’s people like you and 99% of GC’s I have the displeasure of meeting, on and offline, that make me who I am today? Do you want me to agree with one Turk (you) and just two GC’s in this forum who are for unification and don’t take any notice of the rest who want GC dominance in Cyprus and minority “rights” for us TC’s?

For crying out loud, look around you, listen to what most GC’s are screaming out for and listen to what they are saying about us Turks, including you. You may have had some good or even some excellent experiences with the GC’s but most of us have had nothing but grief and had to run away in order not to be killed by them. Even today after 42 years all we hear is Turks this and Turks that. They bring out thousands of years of history but hate it when we bring out their history. I am sure you read what Piratis said a couple of days ago when he started talking about history of Turks and how many GC’s the Ottomans killed and blah blah blah but then the same Piratis mentioned that Cyprus was conquered by the Ottomans and not Turkey, meaning that Turkey has no rights in Cyprus or something stupid like that but at the same time blames us Turks for what the Ottomans did to the Greeks. Now you tell me how anyone is supposed to sit at a table and come to an agreement to live together with people like that.

The trouble with you, mate, is that you only think about what is best for you and what you would like to see. You probably never think about what will or might happen if two people who hate each other were forced to live together. If I remember rightly (maybe I am wrong) you mentioned that you are divorced, I am just sitting here thinking what your reaction would be if I, and others, tried to force you to return to your wife? Would you say, yeah ok or would you tell everyone that they are stupid to even suggest it? You might tell me that you going back to your wife and the GC’s and TC’s living together are two different things but I would say they are not. If two people (you and your x-wife) can’t learn to live together for the sake of your children (if you have any) then how the hell do you expect two nations who have been hating each others guts for centuries to live a peaceful happily ever after life without killing each other is beyond me.

You, mate, have fallen for the lies of the GC’s that there is a difference between Turks from Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots. You have swollen the lies hook, line and sinker. It is what they want you to believe in order for you to hate Turkey and demand that Turkey withdraws it’s Army out of Cyprus. You have the same weakness as most people who want to live in peace and are ready to follow the first sweet-talking snake in to it’s den without even giving a thought for the consequences. Good luck to you, mate, hope you find your happiness but don’t expect everyone else to follow you in your own destruction. I know what you and others are going to say here, you are going to say that I don’t want to live in peace. Well, you are wrong, I have experienced first hand what it’s like to live together with the GC’s and I see the peaceful times since the division of the island since 1974. Now ask me which one I prefer.

After centuries of hate the Greeks and Turks are not ready to live together under one umbrella no matter how peacefully they may live next to each other in foreign countries. Living in a foreign country under someone elses umbrella is not the same as when you live in your own country. Just imagine someone moves in to your house and starts to dictate how and where you should put your furniture and when and when not to take your meals, would you be happy with that? Oh yeah, I am sure you would because you are so good hearted you’d believe anything! Well actually, another word comes to my mind that I could replace “good hearted” with but I think it’s better not to use it right now.

Here’s a suggestion, how about you and the other TC’s who wants unification and living together with the GC’s is a doddle, all move over to the Greek Controlled South Cyprus and after a while we’ll talk again and you can all tell us all about it. What I want is to use you and the likes of you as guinea pigs for trial purposes.

If you are willing then here’s what you need to do in the South. You must tell the GC’s that you have abandoned your Turkishness and that you are a Cypriot. You must demand that they also abandon their Greeknes. You must buy land. You must merry a GC. You must vote in the local and Governmental elections. You must demand the same rights as everyone else in the South. You must also demand that a common language is spoken, English (maybe) and not Turkish or Greek. You must try to be elected as the PM of the so-called “RoC” or maybe even as a simple MP or similar. In fact you must do all the things that you believe would be possible for you and other “true Cypriots” to do should your wish become a reality. I think you get the general idea, mate, so how about it, are you willing to become a “guinea pig” or would you prefer to force the two communities to try it out for you while you are safely tucked away in Oz?

Isn’t it easy to tell people that they can and must live together from 5000 miles away eh (and a lot safer of course)?

Nothing personal, mate.

Another 10 minutes?

[BirKibrisli]

You know, you guys keep proving my point for me. Birkibrisli you say it is people like me that stop our island uniting, that is sooo rich. It is people like you that stop this because you want everything your own way and are not willing to compromise. I take the hard stand from the 50s, (a stand which from the 50s Turkey still keeps, in fact they want more, AND MY VIEWS ARE OLD-FASHIONED?) I show my willingness to negotiate on the issue, and still you and Zan want to take more. I notice that you don't comment on the proposal for shared power, you just manipulate to make it look like I am unreasonable and irrational. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT IS IRRATIONAL, A 50:50 split, for a 78% to 18% (4% are others) difference in population.

This is the funniest part, Zan being Turkish is well-cultured and well read, Eric and I are seemingly absurd and Piratis needs to be more flexible about his democratic values. What are coincidence that the latter three are all GC. Further, Zan has a deep wound inside him. I can't help to find this strange, considering you fail to mention the 200,000 GCs that have a massive wound inside of them, which includes my grandparents and therefore includes me, as I feel it with them.

It seems to me Birkibrisli that it is you that needs to be more flexible and Turkey to drop its hard line stance from the 50s.

Dear Simon,

The trouble with these forums is that whenever someone new comes along we have to state our case all over again.
I am more than willing to compromise.In fact my position is almost exactly like Piratis' and Kifeas' position.So much so that most TCs refuse to believe I am a TC.I prefer to call myself a Cypriot of turkish background.I am for a unitary state based on human rights and full democratic principles including one-vote-one-value system.I don't believe there should be any proportional representation not even 80:20.
All Cypriots should have equal rights and the TCs should live with all the positives and negatives of being an important minority in Cyprus.
I happen to believe that with strong safeguards (equal opportunity and anti-discrimination tribunals) the TCs and GCs can live peacefully together,and make their country and human race proud.But this will not happen bacause I and Kifeas and Piratis want so.Hence my call for Piratis to be more flexible in his democratic principles till the two communities learn to trust themselves and each other.

As to the wounds carried by the 200,000 GC refugees,I feel as strongly for them as I feel for myself and Zan who are also refugees/exiles of the mess the world calls the Cyprus problem.

And If I am not wrong,you are under the misconception that Eric is a GC.
That is a dangerous mistake to make,as you will soon find out for yourself

[Simon]

Bir if that is your position, then why not just say that in the first place. I agree with you on many issues, because you seem to want to COMPROMISE, which is good. In that case, I will compromise.

However, I am suprised that you say you don't believe in proportional representation, because aren't you worried this will lead to TCs being left out in the cold? I actually to an extent agree with you on this, because that way, people can vote for who they want, Turkish or Greek and not be told you must elect 6 Greek this and 4 Turkish that etc. That way will emphasise the divide, the former way would begin to break down barriers.

I apologise for assuming Eric was a GC. As you know, I don't know anyone in this forum and therefore I jumped to the wrong conclusion. However, if proportional representation is the only route the respective governments will go down, then in my opinion it has to be on a 80:20 basis, or else this is then disproportionate.

Further, if any TC holds the view that it should be a 50:50 split, then they are being total hypocrits when they say that my extreme view of 100% to Greece is absurd.