Cyprus-Forum.com

[OB1]

Dear admin sorry about the use of Greek but as you can see it can not be writen in English and there is nothing offensive.

Dear Simon
if at any time you feel that people might thing that you're exaggerating regarding your points of view, always thing that there are many people shearing your points and ideas but such people will not sit on the computer and share your feelings for various reasons.The point is that our society and goverment people try hard to make us believe that we lost our identity or that we never had one (eg PAPAPETROU,VASILIOY etc--no i dont belong to other partys) the brits had the idea of making us ALL feel CYPRIOTS(as a nation!!!!!!!) and they still fight hard for it.(eg sms in Greenglish etc) its a big war against us but as you now ''η ρωμιωσίνη ε'φυλή συνότσερη του κόσμου, κανένας εν εβρέθηκε για να την εξαλύψει.Η ρωμιωσίνη εννα χαθεί οντας ο κόσμος λύψει.'' .,..and if it doesnt rain soon god or allah help this island..

[OB1]

Dear admin sorry about the use of Greek but as you can see it can not be writen in English and there is nothing offensive.

Dear Simon
if at any time you feel that people might thing that you're exaggerating regarding your points of view, always thing that there are many people shearing your points and ideas but such people will not sit on the computer and share your feelings for various reasons.The point is that our society and goverment people try hard to make us believe that we lost our identity or that we never had one (eg PAPAPETROU,VASILIOY etc--no i dont belong to other partys) the brits had the idea of making us ALL feel CYPRIOTS(as a nation!!!!!!!) and they still fight hard for it.(eg sms in Greenglish etc) its a big war against us but as you now ''η ρωμιωσίνη ε'φυλή συνότσερη του κόσμου, κανένας εν εβρέθηκε για να την εξαλύψει.Η ρωμιωσίνη εννα χαθεί οντας ο κόσμος λύψει.'' .,..and if it doesnt rain soon god or allah help this island..

[Simon]

OK firstly, it is an absolute joke to believe the Annan plan would have ever worked. DON'T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE WORD PROPORTIONALITY.

The 1960 Treaty was largely 70:30 in favour of the Greeks. The Annan plan would have meant that the Greek side makes further compromises and the Turks keep their hardline position. Further, Denktash didn't even support the plan. Yes the Turks voted for it, but why do you think, firstly, it was the most one sided plan I have ever seen for a MINORITY of 18%. Secondly, the Turks knew it was unworkable and therefore would have eventually meant permanent separation.

All you guys who ridicule my idea, I notice you don't give any solid foundation for it. I have one, a vast majority of 78% Greek. The island being populated mostly by Greeks since as far back as anyone can remember. The island can be multi-cultural with the TC living there but under a Greek flag, becuase it is a Greek island.

You mention to me how the GC position has changed since 1974. You have proven my point perfectly. The Greeks have been making all the compromises for too long. WHAT WAS THE TURKISH POSITION IN 1974? WHAT IS IT TODAY . They haven't moved at all on this issue.

I have independent books and articles to prove my point, I just can't be bothered to put it all on here because I have better things to do.

Finally, why are Turkey moving more and more illegal settlers to Cyprus in an unresolved issue? Why have they sold valuable Greek history in the land they stole? Why are they changing place names in Cyprus formally to Turkish names? THEY ARE COLONISING THE ISLAND. PURE AND SIMPLE.

Lets forget enosis for a minute, can anyone seriously say to me a government consisting of Turks and Greeks sharing power will work? YOUR LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD. The only way this would happen is if the Turks modernised their position and accepted that proportionality is democracy and that they should not have any more than 20% representation in any governmental establishment when they only make up 18% of the population. That is less than one quarter. ANY MORE THAN THIS WOULD MEAN THAT THE TURKS ARE RULING GREEKS.

That's when it seems obvious to me that power sharing for a minority less than one quarter is unworkable. If it was 30% or 40%, that is different, but for 18%, that is not enough to justify shared power and certainly not on the scale Turkey is requesting.

So it seems obvious - independent state with power sharing of 80:20 - which is proportionate, or Cyprus unified with Greece.[/u]

[Alexis]

Saying "we don't know" is like saying you believe in Father Xmas...However, I can't prove there isn't one, but...

At least I admit that I don't know, whilst you seem to be convinced you know the likely course history would have taken.

Cyprus, because of it's history required a far more complex independance than many other colonised nations, the communities were polarised anyway, if the British had just upped and left (but they wouldn't, as they wanted the bases) it's fair to say that either a bitter civil war would have broken out, followed by Greece and Turkey becoming involved, or Greece and Turkey would have just gone straight to war anyway.

OK, leaving the British out (which was the original premise), we know that Cyprus would have been part of the Ottoman empire. Come the Balkan Wars, followed by the 1st World War, what do you think the chances of Cyprus staying intact would be. Let's add on to that the Greek-Turkish war immediately after the 1st World War.
At this point, Cyprus would have been treated in the same way as all the other contentious land negotiated over in 1923 when the Treaty of Lausanne was signed. Greece at this stage were on the back foot, and Turkey had already begun expelling all the christians in her territories.
At this point Greece had already expelled muslims and would more than likely have carried on as Turkey progressed with her expulsion of christians.
The exchange of populations agreed by Greece and Turkey at this time had the key objective of creating two religiously and culturally homegenous nations. In other words they wanted as few people of the other religion and culture as possible in order to promote this concept. To this day both countries are still extremely homogenous. What are the chances then that at that time, had Cyprus been in the mix (which it would assuming Britain had never gotten involved), that Turkey would have insisted on keeping its minority of TCs and oust the GCs whilst it knew it would have to allow even more Greeks to stay in the regions that mattered to it most (those around Istanbul which were full of Greeks)?
Again, I don't claim this is a dead cert, but to say it is very unlikely is quite wrong. Turkey was on the back foot after both World Wars, and Greece, if you like, backed the right side. I think it's more than likely she would have annexed Cyprus at some stage with the allies blessing had Britain never set foot in Cyprus.

Going back to the assumption that Britain gives Cyprus independence in 1950. There is still a chance that civil war would break out but at least it would not have been preceeded by a 6 year guerilla war in which GCs are pitched against TCs and the two communities ideals of Enosis and Taksim are allowed to gather momentum. Again you cannot seriously turn round and say that it was almost guaranteed that an independent Cyprus would not work. What was more likely at this time was an ideological war between Communists and Capitalists which had happened in both Greece and Turkey around this time. I agree that the communities were already polarised but at this time both Greece and Turkey were receiving Marshall aid from the US and it would have been in the US' interests to keep things sweet between the two, at least until the communists were dealt with.

The Aegean islands were not a threat to Turkey in 1923 as Cyprus could have been in 1974 with the advent of missiles and planes, look how Turkey was prepared to go to war in '97 over the possible installaion of the Russian ant-aircraft missiles.

Yes, ok, but I thought we were talking with the assumption that Britain never sets foot in Cyprus in which case Cyprus would have been dealt with in 1923 (in all likelihood). At that point Cyprus would not have been considered a threat, and the chances are many of the TCs would have left or been forced to leave in 1923 under the treaties terms (as was the case in Crete). Perhaps Tuirkey would later find problems with Cyprus, as she has with the Aegean islands on which Greece has military outposts.

We still don't know, I am just saying it's just as wrong to think that Britain gave GCs the chance of self-determination when they didn't have one as it is for GCs to pile the blame for their problems on Britain.

[Simon]

Sorry, but let me just elaborate on "ANY MORE THAN THIS WOULD MEAN THAT THE TURKS ARE RULING GREEKS."

This is because, if the Turkish population is 18%, a representation of anymore than this, especially that of 30%, 40% or even 50%, would result in Turkish representation of Greek citizens.

Further, why don't foreign influences stay out and allow Cyprus to elect its own President and Parliament? Rather than impose that we have 8 Greek this and 4 Turkish that etc. Because it knows that the government would be dominated by Greeks. Why? Because the country's population is dominated by Greeks. That is why it is a Greek island. It always has been and always will be.

[zan]

Sorry, but let me just elaborate on "ANY MORE THAN THIS WOULD MEAN THAT THE TURKS ARE RULING GREEKS."

This is because, if the Turkish population is 18%, a representation of anymore than this, especially that of 30%, 40% or even 50%, would result in Turkish representation of Greek citizens.

Further, why don't foreign influences stay out and allow Cyprus to elect its own President and Parliament? Rather than impose that we have 8 Greek this and 4 Turkish that etc. Because it knows that the government would be dominated by Greeks. Why? Because the country's population is dominated by Greeks. That is why it is a Greek island. It always has been and always will be.

And I hope you enjoy living on your Greek half of the Island.

[BirKibrisli]

Simon,
I hope you realise you are playing the tune of those like Zan above who want the permanent division of the island.If you insist on enosis (which is union with Greece) than the Tcs will insist on Taksim(joining part of the island to Turkey).And even I would not blame them.Cyprus is an independent nation made up of two peoples of Greek and Turkish background(The other smaller minorities please forgive me for not including you for sake of simplicity).Our troubles began because powers that be were able to exploit our chauvinism and blind nationalism,and managed to make us believe we were two different nations who could not possibly live together.Now you want to stir up the same shite,and hope that will lead to a just and lasting solution for both communities.Give us a break.Don't insult our intelligence.Try to realise that the solution lies in our ability to forge one Cypriot nation from the human beings who call Cyprus home.Anything else will mean more pain and suffering for our children's children's children's children's..........to infinity.

[zan]

Simon,
I hope you realise you are playing the tune of those like Zan above who want the permanent division of the island.If you insist on enosis (which is union with Greece) than the Tcs will insist on Taksim(joining part of the island to Turkey).And even I would not blame them.Cyprus is an independent nation made up of two peoples of Greek and Turkish background(The other smaller minorities please forgive me for not including you for sake of simplicity).Our troubles began because powers that be were able to exploit our chauvinism and blind nationalism,and managed to make us believe we were two different nations who could not possibly live together.Now you want to stir up the same shite,and hope that will lead to a just and lasting solution for both communities.Give us a break.Don't insult our intelligence.Try to realise that the solution lies in our ability to forge one Cypriot nation from the human beings who call Cyprus home.Anything else will mean more pain and suffering for our children's children's children's children's..........to infinity.

Birkibrisli

I don’t know why you choose to misunderstand me but know you are misrepresenting me. No body is playing into my hands. I am sorry if I have burst your bubble but please, don’t shoot the messenger. I want what you want but I have been saying all along that as long as people like Simon exists, unification cannot work. All you have to do is convince those people to get a grip on reality and realise that what they are asking is impossible. Once you have done that to the thousands that exist, including my side, then your war against me is over. I will automatically vote for you in any election and work tirelessly to keep your dream alive. Hell! I am not religious but a shrine for you will have a permanent place in my home.

Long live peace and harmony. Humus and satin sheets for every one.

[Kifeas]

Simon,
I hope you realise you are playing the tune of those like Zan above who want the permanent division of the island.If you insist on enosis (which is union with Greece) than the Tcs will insist on Taksim(joining part of the island to Turkey).And even I would not blame them.Cyprus is an independent nation made up of two peoples of Greek and Turkish background(The other smaller minorities please forgive me for not including you for sake of simplicity).Our troubles began because powers that be were able to exploit our chauvinism and blind nationalism,and managed to make us believe we were two different nations who could not possibly live together.Now you want to stir up the same shite,and hope that will lead to a just and lasting solution for both communities.Give us a break.Don't insult our intelligence.Try to realise that the solution lies in our ability to forge one Cypriot nation from the human beings who call Cyprus home.Anything else will mean more pain and suffering for our children's children's children's children's..........to infinity.

Birk,
I think we are all wasting too much energy and grey matter in trying to deal with the ramblings of some people like the ones you mentioned and not only (from both communities.) I have come to realise that most of these people are so ignorant that I doubt they can locate the anus of their own body, set aside to understand what is happening in Cyprus and in the rest of the world. These are people who probably never opened a book or even a newspaper in order to read and learn anything in relation to the political affairs and agendas inside and outside their country. They are just living in their own separate universe and dreaming. What else could someone say for a GC who talks about Enosis in year 2005?

[Piratis]

What else could someone say for a GC who talks about Enosis in year 2005?

Why not? When we talk with sense and all we ask for is nothing more than our human, legal and democratic rights they expect that the very sensible things we ask for should be balanced with their outrageous illegal demands for racist discrimination, separation and whatever else they think they can force on us.

Then we tell them the obvious - that these universally accepted principles can not be compromised, they accuse us that we do not want to negotiate.

Therefore, since they made no compromise and they still demand the exact same things they demanded since the 50s (and even more), why should we start with our maximum compromises?

Maybe we should start with our maximum demands as well, and negotiate a "middle ground" from there. Then they will not be able to say that we refuse to negotiate. Not only we will be, but we will have space for compromises as well.

what they should realize is that the 1960 agreements is the only legal thing, and that if they want to take something more from those they have to give something of equal value up. This is the only kind of negotiations that can be done. The "gun on your head" kind of negotiations will not work on us. I hope they realized this.