Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

I take it, Oz, that this "dark side" of Greek history is on 1821 when "Greek'ness" dared to fight for freedom from 400 years of Ottoman enslavement?

Are you one of the two Turkish-named 'translators'?

I am sorry lady but you seem to have a problem with comprehending what your own scholars in your own language explained in the video!

No I am not one of the translators but I intend to do a copy for the media in the North with Turkish Subtitles at the bottom.

Finally ny question to you would be, what part of it is it that you do not understand, when you are explained "Greekness" and all that did not exist until 1821?
Why don't you understand that the communities under Ottoman domain were never enslaved but on the contrary, ethnic people learned and practiced their own language, education, and religion freely!

Why do you not want to see that you have been taught false history and fairy tales just to create hatred and animosity against the Turks (just like your youth were after 1974). Not Europen historians but The Greek Orthodox church (contrary to their religious beliefs and directives) had always been the perpetrators of these lies and mis information.

Your so called "fight for freedom" (which never really existed according to the documentary) was mainly carried our by the Albanians who butchered undefended Turkish civilians including women and children (just like in 1963 and 1974 - before the Cyprus invasion). All these lies were to help to create a "Greek" identity and nationalism. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to call themselves Greek, Turk, Eskimo or Mongol! But you are serving other nations' interests and harming yourself, when you start to become racist because of these provocations.

No one is asking you to like the Turkish people! No one is asking you to love TCs! Believe me they hate and abhor you and others who think like you just as much and probably more. So please, if you want to use your democratic right to be ugly, racist and offensive, just carry on - because you are not going to convince anyone sensible in Cyprus with your silly statements. Cypriots have been through a lot of political tests as different ethnic communities and most have come to understand the realities of today's world.

Now excuse me whilst I cross the border in an hour and do some shopping in Ledra Street and help my fellow countrymen through their economic difficulties - with my mind at ease (with no thoughts of "do not spend money in a GC shop and help them buy guns to kill you!" bollocks). I do not believe any GC down South will ever want to kill me and any TC up North will want to harm or kill any GC.

I SUGGEST YOU WATCH THE VİDEO AGAIN - VERY CAREFULLY!

[bigOz]

two wrongs do not make a right

What is wrong is to invade and occupy land that does not belong to you and then oppress other nations ... you did not just two but many such wrongs ... and you continue doing them. Fighting the foreign invaders for your freedom is NEVER wrong. In a war both sides ALWAYS have casualties... telling us that you had casualties doesn't make you any more innocent than Nazis saying that they had casualties... Had you not invaded us in the first place then none would have any casualties. Had you agreed to peacefully give us our freedom then there would be no more casualties... How many losses you had in those wars is totally irrelevant since ALL losses are YOUR fault as you are the aggressors.

Sotos - you also seem to refuse to understand what you watch and hear! Countries were invaded by stronger communities and were pillaged all the time until the first World War! It was not unique to Ottomans. But some tried to destroy the religion and the culture of the locals whilst others respected them and allowed freedom of religion and language (as was the case with Ottomans - a well known fact known and accepted by the whole of today's World, except any nation that is of Greek Orthodox religion).

Turks killed Greeks in their thousands after they invaded Turkey with other nations - just after First World War. The same was done to by nay other Nations when they were invaded. BUT what your documentary was telling you at the very beginning is very clear - the inhabitants of today's Greece and in fact Athens were quite happy and content with the Ottoman rule under which they enjoyed complete freedom of trade, education and religion. The only fights were among local communities which were later falsely portrayed as freedom fighters. To encourage their lies the Germans used the Orthodox church and visual media of the time, such as the paintings all over the buildings and books.

The important thing here to understand is that People of Greece were brainwashed into becoming Turk haters that continues with many to this day and has always been the root of all political and economic troubles both countries had suffered during the last century. If you can make any sense of all that then you are a step nearer to thinking more rationally and perhaps managing to live in peace with other Cypriots who may not necessarily be "Greek".

As an after thought just imagine the opposite and think if Greece and Turkey together with Bulgaria and some Middle East countries under Ottoman domain stayed as one nation (not as Turks or Ottoman but some other joint name eg "Eurasia"). THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE STRONGEST POWER to this day! Does that not make you think this may have been based on Divide and Rule plan by the Germans even then for the ideal Germanic nation to rule the whole of Europe? Something they always wished for many centuries. Was it not the very same Germans who invaded your country a century later?

[Paphitis]

There is no dark side to Greek History!

Just a period where brave Greeks revolutionaries had fought the ottoman Occupiers after 400 years of enslavement and occupation with the assistance of European Phil-hellenes such as King Ludwig of Bavaria and his son King Otto.

Such uprisings always require some myth in order to be successful. Greece had to be united behind an ideal.

Onwards and upwards for Greece without the Turks and without their mosques!

[Sotos]

two wrongs do not make a right

What is wrong is to invade and occupy land that does not belong to you and then oppress other nations ... you did not just two but many such wrongs ... and you continue doing them. Fighting the foreign invaders for your freedom is NEVER wrong. In a war both sides ALWAYS have casualties... telling us that you had casualties doesn't make you any more innocent than Nazis saying that they had casualties... Had you not invaded us in the first place then none would have any casualties. Had you agreed to peacefully give us our freedom then there would be no more casualties... How many losses you had in those wars is totally irrelevant since ALL losses are YOUR fault as you are the aggressors.

Sotos - you also seem to refuse to understand what you watch and hear! Countries were invaded by stronger communities and were pillaged all the time until the first World War! It was not unique to Ottomans. But some tried to destroy the religion and the culture of the locals whilst others respected them and allowed freedom of religion and language (as was the case with Ottomans - a well known fact known and accepted by the whole of today's World, except any nation that is of Greek Orthodox religion).

Turks killed Greeks in their thousands after they invaded Turkey with other nations - just after First World War. The same was done to by nay other Nations when they were invaded. BUT what your documentary was telling you at the very beginning is very clear - the inhabitants of today's Greece and in fact Athens were quite happy and content with the Ottoman rule under which they enjoyed complete freedom of trade, education and religion. The only fights were among local communities which were later falsely portrayed as freedom fighters. To encourage their lies the Germans used the Orthodox church and visual media of the time, such as the paintings all over the buildings and books.

The important thing here to understand is that People of Greece were brainwashed into becoming Turk haters that continues with many to this day and has always been the root of all political and economic troubles both countries had suffered during the last century. If you can make any sense of all that then you are a step nearer to thinking more rationally and perhaps managing to live in peace with other Cypriots who may not necessarily be "Greek".

As an after thought just imagine the opposite and think if Greece and Turkey together with Bulgaria and some Middle East countries under Ottoman domain stayed as one nation (not as Turks or Ottoman but some other joint name eg "Eurasia"). THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE STRONGEST POWER to this day! Does that not make you think this may have been based on Divide and Rule plan by the Germans even then for the ideal Germanic nation to rule the whole of Europe? Something they always wished for many centuries. Was it not the very same Germans who invaded your country a century later?

I watched the documentary you posted and there is NOTHING like what you claim about Greeks being happy with Ottoman rule or that "the only fights were among local communities" and all the other nonsense you posted! Are you imagining things... or did those who wrote the subtitles wrote whatever they wanted (I didn't pay any attention to the subtitles). As far as how "tolerant" the Ottomans were... they tolerated the religion of the other nations as long as those other nations paid heavy taxes to them... much greater than what the Muslims had to pay. We see how tolerant you are today with the Kurds ... you have that one country with them and they want out and you don't let them!! And the Turks didn't kill Greeks just when they "invaded Turkey" ... the Turks killed MILLIONS of Greeks, Armenians and other native people since the time they came to our lands from Central Asia where is the native land of the Turks!

[GreekIslandGirl]

Methinks "Big" Oz has gotten all hysterical over a youtube translation by some Turks.

Unfortunately, the idiot is going to spread the hate to his fellow occupants in the occupied territories to tell them how "good" they have it under the Turks!

[Paphitis]

I have a new found respect for the bavarians.

When I get back to Adelaide, named after a Queen Adelaide Saxe-Meiningien of Hannover, I am going to the Barossa Valley and Hahndorf and stock up on some great Australian Bavarian Wines!

Can BigOz help me decide on the brands?

I always found it intriguing how the Greek Monarch Constantine was officially invited to Adelaide by the German Community to open an elite Lutheran Private School.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Not so long ago, 1920s ... the Turks did what they do best .... another genocide .... One Million Greeks ...



Of course, this is not the "dark" side of Turkishness. It is the daylight!

[Nikitas]

To say that the Ottomans gave freedom of religion and education is total BULLSHIT.

They used the church as an administrative arm to control the local populations. The preferential treatment afforded to moslems speaks volumes- less tax, higher standing in courts etc etc.

As for education there are no great schools founded in any of the countries under Ottoman occupation. Venice was the repository of Greek learning and texts during the four centuries of Ottoman occupation.

As for Greekness not existing in 1821 it is a convenient lie. Nationalism was a historical phenomenon that started way after 1821 when nation states replaced empires. Greece became a antion state in 1828, Turkey in 1923. And that hardly justifies asserting that before 1923 there was no such thing as Turkishness. Check the maps of Europe in the 19th century and compare them to today. Italy did not exist, Germany was a collection of statelets till Bismarck.

So leave the bullshit aside.

As for slaughters by EOKA B etc, EOKA B was created in the 1970s and did not participate in intercommunal fighting. The original EOKA had been disbanded by 1959. The casualty figures show a different picture. The dead are about equal for the two communities, proving that each gave as good as it got. The 800 dead in intercommunal clashes from 1963 to 1967 are dwarfed by the 4500 dead of the Turkish invasion. How would the TCs react to a corresponding proportional loss of their population? Judging by their reaction to the 400 lost in the 1960 they would neither forgive nor forget. Exactly what GCs are doing. There can be no reconciliation under occupation.

[erolz66]

As for slaughters by EOKA B etc, EOKA B was created in the 1970s and did not participate in intercommunal fighting. The original EOKA had been disbanded by 1959.

So who exactly wrote the Akritas plan then ? Who are the 'members' it refers to ? The 'sub headquaters' the 'leaders and deputy leaders' ?

... are dwarfed by the 4500 dead of the Turkish invasion.

Where does this figure of 4500 come from ? How are you separating those GC killed by GC / Greeks in the coup the preceded Turkish military action in Cyprus in 74 ? Or are you claiming no GC was killed by GC / Greeks in this period, only by Turks and TC ?

Indeed we do need to leave the BS aside and there can be no reconciliation if we are unable to do that.

[Paphitis]

There were 102 GC victims to the coup.

The only others were friendly fire where some 20 or so were killed by the CNG at Nicosia Airport.

These are well documented.