Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

Perhaps you should also take some of the leading newspaper editorials that refute Baroufakis points and post them here too.

The term "lenders" leads to some automatic associations, ie shylocks, when the real lenders are citizens of other EU nations and any restructuring, being a tax issue, requires internal democratic procedures in at least 8of the 18 euro partner nations. There are also institutional creditors, like national insurance funds, that lent money belonging to their citizen contributors, and those managing the funds must have legally valid grounds for restructuring.

Beyond finances, this is a group with very peculiar ideas. The Education Minister publicly stated that the pursuit and achievement of academic excellence is a "tarnish" for students and has initiated moves to remove Greece from the Erasmus programme. He plans to rename all four year bachelor degrees to master degrees using study time as his only criterion. And the list of weird moves goes on and on.

The one that irks most though is nepotism and the response they give when obvious nepotistic appointments are pointed out: the other guys did the same. But these people came to power on the promise they would bring in a new ethic. Where is it?

Nikitas, things are far from ideal, for sure. So why are the right wing press vehemently opposing a different strategy to the ones tried before? The right wing press are against all that Syriza stand for without offering different solutions except continuation without change. All Syriza have done since being elected is carry out their (known) strategy. And now, allowing the demos to state their action to a specific question and following the democratic path is something to be praised not condemned, surely. After all, Greece almost got this far before and was stopped as the IMF/EU found a direct way to continue their own program against the Greek people.

Many are as financially/securely comfortable as they were before - but many are not also. So, let the referendum speak for how ready people are to try a new path.

At the very least Syriza's methods should be identifying the flaws in the systems.

[supporttheunderdog]

An article I found today.....

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HedgeyeA 'Grexit' Won't Solve Greece's Crisis—But This Will
Daniel Lacalle Daniel Lacalle
Senior Vice President and Portfolio Manager at PIMCO
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A 'Grexit' Won't Solve Greece's Crisis—But This Will
Jun 30, 201520,158 views499 Likes116 CommentsShare on LinkedInShare on FacebookShare on Google PlusShare on Twitter
“You can check out any time you like but you can never leave.” -Hotel California

The Greek drama continues to unfold and puts pressure on European markets despite the fact that Draghi's “monetary laughing gas” continues to pump €60bn per month into the slowly recovering European economy.

The call by the ruling party, the communist Syriza, for a referéndum in Greece, is the last episode of a soap opera that's starting to be sadly comical.

For once, Syriza is calling a referéndum on State fiscal policy, something that the Greek constitution specifically forbids. It is simply a measure to try to make citizens forget the atrocious negotiating tactics of their government, who could have reached a beneficial agreement much earlier without putting the country on the verge of a bank run.

Additionally, the government is trying to show to the citizens that the Troika proposals are unacceptable when the difference between the document presented by Syriza and the EU's suggestions are minimal (0.5% of GDP).

The real drama is that none of the measures announced will solve Greece's real issues. No, it's not the euro, or the austerity plans. It's not the cost or maturity of debt. Greece pays less than 2.6% of GDP in interest and has 16.5 years of average maturity in its bonds. In fact, Greece already enjoys much better debt terms than any sovereign re-structuring seen in recent history.

Greece's problem is not one of solidarity either. Greece has received the equivalent of 214% of its GDP in aid from the Eurozone, ten times more, relative to gross domestic product, than Germany after the Second World War.

Greece's challenge is and has always been one of competitiveness and bureaucratic impediments to create businesses and jobs.

Greece ranks number 81 in the Global Competitiveness Index, compared to Spain (35), Portugal (36) or Italy (49). In fact it has the levels of competitiveness of Algeria or Iran, not of an OECD country. On top of that, Greece has one of the worst fiscal systems and limits job creation with a combination of agressive taxation on SMEs and high bureaucracy. Greece ranks among the poorest countries of the OECD in ease of doing business (Doing Business, World Bank) at number 61, well below Spain, Italy or Portugal.

Greece's average annual déficit in the decade before it entered the euro was already 6%, and in the period it still grew significantly below the average of the EU countries and peripheral Europe.

Between 1976 and 2012 the number of civil servants multiplied by three while the private sector workforce grew just 25%. This, added to more than 70 loss-making public companies and a government spend to GDP figure that stands at 59%, and has averaged 49% since 2004, is the real Greek drama, and one that will not be solved easily.

One thing is sure, the Greek crisis will not finish by raising VAT – impacting consumption – and increasing taxes to businesses, nor making small adjustments to a pension system that remains outdated and miles away from those of other European countries. A new 12% “one-off” tax on companies generating profits of more than 500,000 euro will not help job creation and will likely incentivise more tax fraud.

The inefficacy of subsequent Greek governments and Troika proposals is that they never tackle competitiveness and help job creation, they simply dig the hole deeper raising taxes and allowing wasteful spend to go on.

[Oceanside50]

Is this democracy?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ime-change

[Nikitas]

GIG said:

"the right wing press vehemently opposing "

Well you need to take a look at the newspapers that support the YES vote, leading LEFT wing dailies like Ta Nea, Ethnos, and Sunday Vima are pro YES.

The far right wind press are in fact in favor of NO. Syriza is flanked by the far right ANEL, its governement partner, and the nazi lot of Golden Dawn.

Former LEFT wing premiers Simitis, Papandreou, support the YES vote.

LEFT wing mayor of Thessaloniki (population 2 million) Boutaris, plus the mostly LEFT wing regional governors' association came out in favor of YES as did the mostly LEFT wing local government leaders. Athen (population 4 million) mayor Kaminis is pro YES, but he is center right and he does not count.

Indicative of the press situation here is the treatment of the ATM ques. They were front page in ALL newspapers today EXCEPT Avgi, the Syriza official mouthpiece. They did not even include practical info on the ATMs such as having to type the sum 60, since our ATMs are programmed in sums of 40, 80, 120 etc and the current limit is 60 which has to be typed in the "other sums" card. Older people have a hard time figuring it out.

Syriza is NOT left wing, it is a crypto stalinist cadre and as such it attracts people of that philosophy, who see any opposing view as "germanotsolias", "dosilogos" and "fifth columnist" and are unable to ever accept responsibility for their plans and choices. Their objective is not in or out of the Euro, that is irrelevant to their plans for regime change in Greece.

Italian premier Renci is a personal friend of Tsipras, yet today he came out with a warning that a NO vote would automatically exclude Greece from the Eurozone. Our own Georgiadis avoids any contact with his Greek counterpart, does that not make you wonder why?

Baroufakis was touted as a grand master of game theory. Look up the interview of game theory founder Nashe clearly rejecting his own theory as a basis of meaningful negotiation. No wonder the Baroufakis approach failed to reach a deal after 117 days of game theorising.

[Tim Drayton]

The latest odds are 2/5 yes - 7/4 no.

[Get Real!]

Seeing that Tsirpas likes to play the Che Guevara, then he should go all the way by taking some of Greece’s creditors to an international court for lending money to an economy that didn’t satisfy borrowing prerequisites on the premise that the lender has some degree of responsibility of ensuring the borrower can pay back the loan.

I recall such a case in Australia (90s) of a female shopaholic who sued her bank for negligent credit card issuing/lending and she won! Her debt was completely written off!

[B25]

Seeing that Tsirpas likes to play the Che Guevara, then he should go all the way by taking some of Greece’s creditors to an international court for lending money to an economy that didn’t satisfy borrowing prerequisites on the premise that the lender has some degree of responsibility of ensuring the borrower can pay back the loan.

I recall such a case in Australia (90s) of a female shopaholic who sued her bank for negligent credit card issuing/lending and she won! Her debt was completely written off!

Don't go far, we have this problem in Cyprus where the Banks irresponsibly lent 100s of millions to developers who could not pay them back and have since shafted their buyers and people who were taking out loans for properties they could not afford. Chuck the manager a few quid to change the paperwork and all is well.

The banks have a responsibility, the money they are flashing around is not theirs, but others and so they should ensure safe investments not just to make a quick buck. This is the reason the Cypriot economy is fucked today.

Previous Greek governments have failed the country big time, not Tsipras. if any of the others had his balls, Greece would be ok now, but for the fakelaki!

[GreekIslandGirl]

Is this democracy?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ime-change

This article is spot on!

The EU authorities have a deep aversion to referendums, and countries are routinely persuaded to hold them again if they give the wrong answer. The vote planned in Greece is no exception. A barrage of threats and scaremongering was unleashed as soon as it was called.

It takes guts to do what Syriza have been doing. I wish some other countries would come out and offer more show of support. Hollande has tried a little. Merkel has been silenced. It does seem the EU has been sabotaged by bankers.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Greece's challenge is and has always been one of competitiveness and bureaucratic impediments to create businesses and jobs.

Greece's challenge is the hyper-powerful Germany oozing corruption through every pore!

For example:

German electronics company Siemens has agreed to pay about 270 million euro to the Greek state in order to settle a legal action over bribing Greek officials.

Siemens has officially apologized to Greek people for corrupt practices used by the firm in the past.

In response, the Greek Government promised not to file any further claims against the company and allow it to bid for new orders.

Furthermore:

It wasn’t the first time Siemens was involved in a corruption scandal. The company paid about 1 billion euro in penalties for bribery accusations in the US and Germany. Several German companies including Daimler, Ferrostaal, Deutsche Bahn and Deutsche Telekom have been accused in bribing officials around the world.

http://rt.com/business/siemens-greece-b ... yment-596/

[Nikitas]

GIG again:

"It takes guts to do what Syriza have been doing."

Are you for real!!!! Have you seen the actual ballot? It has the preamble of the CANCELLED agreement of last Thursday in ENGLISH for F. sake! and asks people whether they approve or reject it.

It is a meaningless exercise since the agreement was rejected days ago and is no longer on the table.

What Syriza is doing is asking the general population to shoulder responsibility for 117 days of their jerking off instead of negotiating, and they were jerking off because that was their plan from the start, to opt out of the Euro and back to the drachma.

Can you trust these goons with their finger on the money printing press? Which is what they want to get since they consider money printing a "sovereign act".

Oh yes, and today the Syriza appointed head of Hellenic Petroleum, Mr Tsotsoros carried out one of his first executive actions, gave himself a 110 000 Euro per annum pay rise, taking his annual salary to 280 000 Euro. This while pensioners cannot withdraw more than 60 Euros daily from their accounts.

Brave lot indeed. The whole Tsipras enourage are rich kids who got infected with the "revolutionary" bug at college. Tsip himself took ten years to graduate, the son of a wealthy contractor, his mentor Flab is a wealthy developer, Euclid Tsakalotos went to Eaton (obviously a proletariat school) and Oxford, Zoi is the daughter of a big time lawyer who lived in Manhattan during her studies , you get the picture. Today Baroufakis told the press that he and his wife (heiress of an industrial fortune) have not visited the ATMs yet, "because they live a very plain life". What a crock!

If you want an insight into Syriza and the type of personality it attracts go to Skai.gr and read professor Liapis article on Baroufakis' narcissism and professor Mazauer's article on the historic background of how pseudo leftists get into Greek politics. Professor Liapis is the senior psychiatry professor at the state Aiginitio hospital and got his PhD at Tufts.