Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

...indeed, what seems onerous, take it or leave it, the choice is left to the people who will suffer under this debt. No deal is better under these conditions, says Tsipras, and that he is against it. It takes courage to give what are the rest of the European working classes the chance to say this 'yes' or 'no'. Greece will accept "austerity", and they will try to abide, my guess; but that does not mean that there will be no other time, or place. A referendum is not new, Papandreou suggested it, then. And yes, Democracy is reinforced by it, one day people may vote, for their Freedom, another way. They will at least have had the chance, thanks to this referendum. And they will vote to demonstrate the solidarity they have, in this will.

[observer]

It seems to me very simple, and very democratic.

If Greece wants to stay in the Eurozone than they must obey the rules of the Eurozone which, remember, has 18 other countries in it and the numbers seem to be 18 to 1 against Greece. That’s democracy.

If Greece doesn’t want to obey the Eurozone’s rules it is open to the Greek people to vote to leave the Eurozone (and even the EU) and make up whatever rules they want. That too is democracy.

Odd that the country that claims to have invented democracy has such trouble in understanding it.

Bollocks. It's the EU that doesn't understand democracy. Next Sunday Greeks will have a DEMOCRATIC referendum to decide their next move.

I think that's what I said.

What is not democratic is the Greek government saying that because the Greeks had a referendum then all the other members of the EU should dance to the Greek's tune.

Try this. Last night my family held a referendum. We democratically decided that every other member of the Cyprus Forum should pay us 1,000 Euros. Doesn't make sense does it? Nor did the Greek government's position.

[GreekIslandGirl]

It seems to me very simple, and very democratic.

If Greece wants to stay in the Eurozone than they must obey the rules of the Eurozone which, remember, has 18 other countries in it and the numbers seem to be 18 to 1 against Greece. That’s democracy.

If Greece doesn’t want to obey the Eurozone’s rules it is open to the Greek people to vote to leave the Eurozone (and even the EU) and make up whatever rules they want. That too is democracy.

Odd that the country that claims to have invented democracy has such trouble in understanding it.

Bollocks. It's the EU that doesn't understand democracy. Next Sunday Greeks will have a DEMOCRATIC referendum to decide their next move.

I think that's what I said.

What is not democratic is the Greek government saying that because the Greeks had a referendum then all the other members of the EU should dance to the Greek's tune.

Try this. Last night my family held a referendum. We democratically decided that every other member of the Cyprus Forum should pay us 1,000 Euros. Doesn't make sense does it? Nor did the Greek government's position.

Excuse me, but your example is idiotic. The referendum will be about accepting what is on offer or not. So, if CF had offered you 1,000 Euros you could vote whether to accept it or not. But, how can you vote to accept something that is not an option for you?
(Except, I suppose, by thinking like a Turk, as happened in Cyprus. You make up an imaginary position and then justify a 'legitimate' grab for the people of whatever you wanted through your distorted ideas of democracy in action.)

[observer]

I don't think anyone knows what is on offer.

The position I referred to is the one that the Greek government have been spouting for months. A referendum actually makes some sense if it's about what the Greeks themselves do, not the Greeks deciding what the rest of the Eurozone should do, then claiming lack of democracy when the Eurozone says 'no thank you'.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I don't think anyone knows what is on offer.

Correct - it's not certain the referendum will go through yet. And yes, the Greeks are not deciding on the EU's future but what they as a nation want to do. Stop reading the British press as though it's gospel.

[observer]

I can't recall the last time I read a British newspaper. I'm glad that we seem to be reaching some sort of agreement though.

As I think I said originally, the Greeks should decide what they want to do and not expect the rest of Europe to fall into line. If they want to stay in the Eurozone, obey the Eurozone's rules and accept their obligations, however hard. If they don't want to do that, they may leave. A referendum (2 years ago was it first proposed?) is not a bad idea although I still don't know the wording of the referendum.

[Robin Hood]

Why not let the man himself explain? The EU as an example of democracy in action!

A Bad Day For Democracy

By Yanis Varoufakis
Greek Finance Minister

The very idea that a government would consult its people on a problematic proposal put to it by the institutions was treated with incomprehension and often with disdain bordering on contempt. I was even asked: “How do you expect common people to understand such complex issues?”.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42267.htm

[B25]

Why not let the man himself explain? The EU as an example of democracy in action!

A Bad Day For Democracy

By Yanis Varoufakis
Greek Finance Minister

The very idea that a government would consult its people on a problematic proposal put to it by the institutions was treated with incomprehension and often with disdain bordering on contempt. I was even asked: “How do you expect common people to understand such complex issues?”.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42267.htm

Seems to be another case of united we stand and divided we fall!!!

[GreekIslandGirl]

the Greeks should decide what they want to do and not expect the rest of Europe to fall into line. If they want to stay in the Eurozone, obey the Eurozone's rules and accept their obligations, however hard. If they don't want to do that, they may leave. A referendum (2 years ago was it first proposed?) is not a bad idea although I still don't know the wording of the referendum.

Again, the referendum is not about changing the EU but somewhere along the lines of whether, under the offered conditions, the Greeks should stay or accept or depart (to be decided).

But you are entirely wrong in everything else you say and it suggests ignorance of civilization and democracy in particular. There is room for improvement in all systems. There is certainly room for improvement in the evolving status of the EU. And of course, the Greeks like all the members of the EU, have a right to improve it (but that's not directly what the referendum will be about, although most likely there will be consequences from which all should learn) - just as Cameron thinks he has a right to alter various conditions that the UK has to follow.

- I guess we're back to the Turkish mindset that wrecked Cyprus. The blank refusal to improve a given set of conditions when they are found to be archaic and unworkable and undemocratic. Instead of following democracy, the Turks chose land grabs.

[observer]

- I guess we're back to the Turkish mindset that wrecked Cyprus. The blank refusal to improve a given set of conditions when they are found to be archaic and unworkable and undemocratic. Instead of following democracy, the Turks chose land grabs.

I'm a little unsure about what I'm wrong about, but when it comes to land grabs I yield to the experts:

1832 - Greece Independence
1863 - Greece "grabs" Ionian Islands
1881 - Greece "grabs" Thesally
1908 - Greece "grabs" Crete
1913 - Greece "grabs" Macedonia
1920 - Greece "grabs" Western Anatolia (failure)
1927 - Greece "grabs" Western Thrace
1947 - Greece "grabs" Dodecanese
1974 - Greece "grabs" Cyprus (failure)

1923 - Republic of Turkey founded.
1939 - Turkey "grabs" Hatay
1974 - Turkey "grabs" Cyprus

I've used "grabs" as a neutral word to cover all border changes, violent and peaceful, but it does seem that historically Greece has been a bit of an expansionist country.