Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

FIRST EQUALITY REQUEST BY TCs


In late 1881, the British administration started preparations to establish an " advisory" Legislative Council , which again encountered Greek memorandums full of ENOSIS claims. On 2 December 1881, the Archbishop presented to the British administration a memorandum similar to the one in 1879 in which he requested the representation of the two communities in the island in proportion to their populations. This objective he achieved with an amendment was promulgated in the Official Gazette on 23 March 1881.

In March 1882, an 18-member Legislative Council was decided to be established. Of these, 3 Turks and 6 Greeks would be elected and 6 officials would be assigned.

Turkish and Greek representatives were to be determined through elections to be held within each community. Wary of the ENOSIS claims of Greeks, Turks applied to the British High Commissioner in late 1881 and requested "equal representation" at the legislative and judicial bodies.
The British administration did not take these requests into consideration in the 1882 Constitution, the first Constitution of the British administration. Therefore, Turks conducted their first "organized reactions". First, the representatives of the Turkish community that were presided by Mufti Esseyyid Ahmet Asım sent a telegram to the British High Commissioner notifying him of their decision not to participate in a Legislative Council that neglected the principle of equality. 6 days later, on 26 march 1882, they sent a "memorandum" to British Minister of Colonies Kimberly and repeated their request of "equal representation" as a counter-guarantee for ENOSIS.
This memorandum which demanded the Legislative Council plans be deferred was forwarded to the House of Commons by British MP Ashmead Barlett in late March. The memorandum included the following remarks:

"Greeks, on the other hand, undertake provocative activities, oppress Turks in the island and try to devastate Turkish Cypriot existence in the island.

During the Turkish rule that lasted for more than 300 years, Christians were always treated fairly and their rights were protected. They were permitted obtain property and allowed full freedom in their religion. Today's government has not negotiated with us. In the event that nine Christian but only three Turkish members are elected, Christians will thus be allowed considerable powers. But, the number of Muslim and Christian numbers are equal in the provincial administrative councils in Anatolia where Muslims establish the majority.

The Greek cypriots clearly state that they will use the advantage of majority, oppress Turks and try to attain ENOSIS. That is, the Cypriot Turks will be left in the hands of Greek Cypriots. Muslims and Christians should be represented equally in the Council in order to prevent this. We have the right to equal representation (1)".
The memorandum further protested the provocative ENOSIS articles in the Greek cypriot newspapers.

The representatives of the Turkish Cypriot community also informed the Ottoman administration of this situation. Although it had recently been relieved of the profound stress of the 93 War, the Ottoman administration immediately dealt with the issue and sent the British government a protest message through its London Ambassador on 6 April 1882. The telegram stated that " Christians and Muslims were represented equally in the Ottoman state regardless of their number" and protested the principle of "population-related representation" that was envisaged in the 1882 Constitution (2).

Seeing that the ENOSIS propaganda increased in the Greek cypriot press, churches and schools in late 1800s, the British set for new measures as the incitements targeted Turks. Britain was forced to move since Greek cypriots attacked Turks with ENOSIS slogans in Tahtakale, Vitsada and Vadili and the first clashes started between the two communities in 1895. The British determined that the Greek Consul to Larnaka had a leading role in these assaults and protested the Greek government. In addition, the Ottoman state warned the British Ambassador to İstanbul and requested the relevant measures to be taken, stating that the Turkish community in Cyprus were bothered (3).

[metecyp]

I really don't understand why you copy-paste these things here. I especially don't appreciate how you try to portray GCs as provocators and oppressers and Turks as angels. If you have an opinion, say it, don't copy-paste someone's ideas.

[iskismet]

I thought it was a good idea - gives me a better background. We all learn from history - I hope.

[insan]

This article is a research about TCs "political equality" struggle and I've already told my opinions about it. If anyone wants to share an article about someting with others there's no way other than copying and pasting it to share ... Instead of telling me why I copied and pasted it here; tell me what you believe is lie and propaganda. Even there are some other researches which was made by a GC resercher regarding this issue and it verifies what is written in above article...


I'm in Istanbul at the moment and when I return to Cyprus I'll make my own research by going to the archives and libraries. Then I'll scan and upload the original documents which verifiy TCs struggle for "political equality" in Cyprus.



The issue isn't coppying and pasteing the articles that had been made about TCs "political equality" struggle. Most of the GCs and foreigners believe that TCs "political equality" demand arise from Brits "divide and rule" policy or Turkish Generals expansionism. That's not the case. It arised from their communal consciousness.


If you have strong evidences that can refute what is written in above article, just tell us...

[Piratis]

If anyone wants to share an article about someting with others there's no way other than copying and pasting it to share

You could give a link to it and maybe quote here some small highlights. Anybody interested could simply follow the link.

tell me what you believe is lie and propaganda.

I don't know what is lie and whats not, and since we are talking about 1881 you don't know 100% either.
What is propaganda is to selectively use some events of the past to try to excuse illegal actions of today.

It arised from their communal consciousness.

It doesn't matter how it rose. Greek Cypriots are on this island for 3.500 years. Turkish Cypriots started to appear in the 16th century when the Ottomans captured the island. What exactly gives you any kind of right to say that your 18% should have 50% power? If I can prove to you that since the day I was born I wanted to own the whole world, does this make my demand any more reasonable? It was an outrageous demand then, it is an outrageous demand today, and it will remain an outrageous demand in the future. Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots equally. You are not more Cypriots than we or Latins or Maronites or Armenians are. Why should a TC vote be 4.5 times more important than a vote of other Cypriots?

I understand you can have some security fears, and I understand that you want to protect your unique language, culture and religion. This things will be taken care off, not just by words, but with the most official way: written in the constitution that will not be able to change without your approval. We have also agreed that TCs will have their own federal state within which they will have quite a bit of autonomy. For you its not enough! What you want is for us to bent to F*ck us!!

I thought it was a good idea - gives me a better background. We all learn from history - I hope.

iskismet, *if* you are interested to learn about history then you should make your research. Here most Greek Cypriots will not post that kind of hate propaganda (although it is readily available for copy-paste) because most of Greek Cypriot members of this forum believe that we should leave past behind and that sooner or later TCs and GCs will be living together again. Some Turkish Cypriots think that they are going to impress/convince some foreigners about their cause in this way. We know that those foreigners that take decisions already know everything very well (maybe better than any Cypriot). Also I believe that this forum should be used to build bridges between TCs and GCs and not simply to recycle the same old propaganda.

[insan]

You could give a link to it and maybe quote here some small highlights. Anybody interested could simply follow the link.

What's wrong with copying and pasteing it as a whole? If you don't want to read it, don't read and let the others who want to read; read it!

I don't know what is lie and whats not, and since we are talking about 1881 you don't know 100% either.

Documents don't lie...

What is propaganda is to selectively use some events of the past to try to excuse illegal actions of today.

For a helthy future of two communities, political equality on legislative and judicial bodies is a must and TCs have been struggling for it since late 1800s. I and the whole TC community believe that it's fair under Cyprus' conditions....

It doesn't matter how it rose. Greek Cypriots are on this island for 3.500 years. Turkish Cypriots started to appear in the 16th century when the Ottomans captured the island. What exactly gives you any kind of right to say that your 18% should have 50% power?

How much do GC community have the right to determine the future of Island; TCs also have that right as much as you have it. Otherwise our partnership can't be viable. You talk about a federative bi-communal partnership but you also tell me that some matters are none of your business. What kind of partnership is it? How will two communities collaborate to make their country a better place while some matters are not their business. You talk about a self-interested democrasy which restricts the TCs participation on "some" matters. Why don't you want TCs to participate on those matters. Because you are the masters and TCs your apprentices? Neither TCs nor the whole world can accept a GC-interested democrasy.

If I can prove to you that since the day I was born I wanted to own the whole world, does this make my demand any more reasonable?

You started to make nonesense again... You are the ones who demanded whole Cyprus not TCs.... You better stop speaking nonesense and giving irrelevant examples.... You make whole world to laugh at you...

It was an outrageous demand then, it is an outrageous demand today, and it will remain an outrageous demand in the future. Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots equally. You are not more Cypriots than we or Latins or Maronites or Armenians are. Why should a TC vote be 4.5 times more important than a vote of other Cypriots?

Do you know how legislative and judicial bodies work in a federative system? If you don't know; don't make me to waste my time to tell you how they work.... We talk about two Cypriot communities partnership in a unified state... You say you agree equal representation in Senate, but you also say "that it's just a symbolic equal representation because you don't have the right to be equally represented on all matters of central state."

What kind of democrasy and partnership is it, can you tell me? As I said don't give me Armenians, Maronites etc as an example because I told you before that if TCs have been 1/10 or less of the total population; they wouldn't ask for "political equality". But you keep making nonsesnse by giving those minoritites as an example to me. you really have big understanding problem.

I understand you can have some security fears, and I understand that you want to protect your unique language, culture and religion. This things will be taken care off, not just by words, but with the most official way: written in the constitution that will not be able to change without your approval. We have also agreed that TCs will have their own federal state within which they will have quite a bit of autonomy. For you its not enough! What you want is for us to bent to F*ck us!!

What concerns, interests and dreams you have about Cyprus; TCs have the same too.

iskismet, *if* you are interested to learn about history then you should make your research. Here most Greek Cypriots will not post that kind of hate propaganda (although it is readily available for copy-paste) because most of Greek Cypriot members of this forum believe that we should leave past behind and that sooner or later TCs and GCs will be living together again. Some Turkish Cypriots think that they are going to impress/convince some foreigners about their cause in this way. We know that those foreigners that take decisions already know everything very well (maybe better than any Cypriot). Also I believe that this forum should be used to build bridges between TCs and GCs and not simply to recycle the same old propaganda.

Hahahahaha! Just I can laugh at you. TCs: "Forget the past! Because you are all converted Greeks actually. Brits and Turkish generals deluded you to fight with GCs. Those foreign powers just using you to get what they want. We the GCs care about you. We offer you the minority status in our country. We are going to be the masters and you the apprentices of us. %82 and %18 can't be equal even on legislative and judicial bodies... We are the majority, we are the owners of the Cyprus and you are the guests. When the time comes guests should go back to their homes. You should respect to the owner of Cyprus.... but if you want to stay longer, you have to be our servants."


Keep hating us. I don't care at all!

ANARCHY IN CYPRUS!

[iskismet]

Research can take all forms - from past writings, from talking to people, and from listening!

I have learnt a lot from this forum and others like it.

I started out calling the Turkish operation in 1974 a peace operation (I'd thought it self evident). I now know there are two very emotive sides to this and that I was being too simplistic to begin with.

I also now realise the futility of the TCs expecting a 50% power share. I undertstand where they are coming from with this, but it is simply not realistic - and not democratic.

It is also futile for the GCs to expect the TCs to accept anything less - they need more than assurances of fair treatment - they need guarantees. At the moment that guarantee comes in the form of the Turkish army.

What's left - the status quo. I cannot see anything happening that will change attitudes - it is simpler to leave things as they are.

Lord Hanney gave in for the UK, his exasperation at the lack of progress was evident. Annan has given in, the EU have given in. Funds will start to drift in the direction of the north and slowly recognition will increase.

But - on the bright side no one is being killed and there is some sort of peace.

[insan]

I also now realise the futility of the TCs expecting a 50% power share. I undertstand where they are coming from with this, but it is simply not realistic - and not democratic.

Why it is not realistic and democratic, iskismet?

What does 50/50 power share in Senate mean to you?

Let's say "x" bill needs 3/4(might be 3/5 or simple majority; depends on significancy of the issue) seperate majority vote of Senate(equal power sharing) and House of representatives(proportional power sharing)...



First it must be voted in House of Representatives where two communities participate proportionaly. If the bill gets 3/4 of the votes of two communities seperately; then the bill can be sent to Senate.


There are 4 possibilities to have it passed or blocked...


1- 3/4 from GC senators vs less than 3/4 from TC senators.(Doesn't pass)

2- 3/4 from TC senators vs less than 3/4 From GC senators.(Doesn't pass)

3- 3/4 from both communities senators.(passes)

4- Less than 3/4 from both communities senators.(Doesn't pass)


Each communities must respect to the majority decision of other community. What is inconvinience with it? If the decision of one community violates the rights of other community; they both have the right to apply to the independent Supreme Court. The final decision would be made by independent judiciaries, according to the laws of United Cyprus and International laws. This means both communities political attitudes have to be reasonable and lawful. GC community has nothing to lose in this system... I believe that it is fair, democratic and works for a United Cyprus. Moreover this system will force the representatives and members of two communities to build good relationships, bi-communal pressure groups and alliances. There's nothing to worry about it.



Ps: The executives are the members of House where two communities participate proportionaly per their population ratio. This means all executive positions of central government will be shared proportionaly per population ratio.

[iskismet]

Democracy is about one person one vote.

Would it be right to give the TCs the equivalent of 4 votes each but just one to each GC. It is unreasonable to expect more.

It didn't work in 1960 (the TCs were instrumental in making sure it didn't work) and it will not work now.

Ask yourself if the TC were in the majority would they throw this advantage away?

I don't think so.

[Piratis]

Documents don't lie...

Many of them do, they are written by humans. Even the book that most people swear by it is full of lies.

For a helthy future of two communities, political equality on legislative and judicial bodies is a must and TCs have been struggling for it since late 1800s. I and the whole TC community believe that it's fair under Cyprus' conditions....

I disagree. What will create something healthy is if all of us stop trying to gain as much as possible and simply start obeying the laws, human rights and democracy. Nothing is perfect, but a true democracy along with full respect to human rights is the best we can have.

How much do GC community have the right to determine the future of Island; TCs also have that right as much as you have it.

Cypriots have the right to determine the future of the island. That includes me and you. Not you you you you you and me.

How will two communities collaborate to make their country a better place while some matters are not their business. You talk about a self-interested democracy which restricts the TCs participation on "some" matters. Why don't you want TCs to participate on those matters. Because you are the masters and TCs your apprentices?

It doesn't restrict it at all. Actually what I proposed several times boasts TC participation. Nobody is the master of anybody. We are all equal Cypriots. The law should make sure that democracy functions and that no person or group is imposed on another person or group.

Neither TCs nor the whole world can accept a GC-interested democrasy.

The "GC-interested" democracy as you call it is already accepted by all democratic countries in the most official way: They apply it to their own countries. (or thats what they claim at least)

Do you know how legislative and judicial bodies work in a federative system?

I know, and it has noting to do with what you are demanding.

As I said don't give me Armenians, Maronites etc as an example because I told you before that if TCs have been 1/10 or less of the total population; they wouldn't ask for "political equality".

So if TCs were 1/10th they wouldn't demand these things. Now they are 1.8/10th even claiming that such demands are outrageous is considered nonsence? What exactly changes from 1/10th to 1.8/10th?

What concerns, interests and dreams you have about Cyprus; TCs have the same too.

Non of my dreams is based on the violations of other people basic human rights. I don't know about what dreams you have.

Hahahahaha! Just I can laugh at you.

If you want to quote me there is a very easy way to do it (copy-paste .. you know it), there is no need to put in my mouth things that I never said.

Keep hating us. I don't care at all!

I don't hate you. But I admit that sometimes you (in general not personally) piss me of so much is kinda hard to keep calm .. but I am trying

ANARCHY IN CYPRUS!

Anarchy is a theory. Humans will always have masters. The best we can do is to try to control these masters, and the best available way is democracy.