Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

Ooooh, do stop making things up cousin Sheestro and do stop trying to derail the thread.

Put simply, do you support Ms Derya when she says...

"... "... “But I explained how we should understand each other’s pain and that many Greek Cypriot women were raped by the Turkish army during the war and even the Church permitted abortions for the first time.” ..."

???

Do YOU support her when she says "we should understand each other’s pain" or do you only see and support her saying "many Greek Cypriot women were raped by the Turkish army during the war" ? I ask this because in over ten years of watching your posts here Bill I have never seen you post anything that suggests you support the idea that "we should understand each other’s pain". What I HAVE seen, relentlessly, persistently and consistently from you is a purely GC perspective that seeks always to maximum and emphasise 'your' pain and diminish and deny ours along with constant criticism and reporting of others criticism of the 'other' side and never the same for your own.

If you really do support the notion that "we should understand each other’s pain" and are in fact not just seeking to use this event to highlight your sides pain while ignoring ours, as you have consistently done here year after year after year, then why not post something that shows this is the case ? Have you even considered the question where are the RoC politicians saying the equivalent to this in the RoC parliament because if you have you certainly have not seen fit to raise it here in this thread. Why is that Bill ?

[repulsewarrior]

...i'll be the first to say that all of us have our fear inside us which we must confront and overcome. we all need to change erolz, and the world is not as black and white as any of us would like it to be. indeed, i defend and encourage bill, and others on this forum because to me, it is a vital lifeline. years i sat hungry, unable to speak, voiceless until the internet, what do i care about your, or bill's political leanings, it is enough to express my own thoughts in dialog, and i am no better than anyone at discerning right from wrong i think, and just as able in evaluating what is truth, what is an exaggeration, and what is an outright lie. again i suggest, that you and bill can agree, lies are a very dangerous thing, they are wrong. nasty is facts, it is not character assassination. nasty is fact, real and tangible, food for thought, like this topic. does it matter that it is bill that consistently brings us these tidbits, are you stating that this is not useful to Cypriots if they are Turcophone? what are your really saying; from you i would expect better, yes erolz i admire your acumen, give us something, open topics that educate, about the value of the Constituency "you've" made of(for) yourself; i am hungry to know who the leaders are that, will, be running in the next election, and their Parties, what they represent (for a start). who would be better to expose the corruption "south" if you will, than you, it matters not, if our intention is to realise something more, and something better.

...as for you reh Lordo, being in the Christmas cheer, ditto. (but, i can't forget the incinerator that burns toxic fumes that does not even exists, it was bill who set us all straight; again facts. and) i suggest to you to reconsider your opinions of the them that is the "other" side, is it not also possible that the TMT, and the EOKA, drove Cypriots from their homes, in both cases? ...that it serves their purpose, to lie, or to ignore the suffering they caused because "they" suffered too?

...a Turkish Cypriot identity evolved because of the introduction of enclaves to our Geography, it is as plain as i can say it without making a Judgement, i guess. a man with an obtuse sense of humour will see the sense in my saying also, you (/"you") should be grateful. the way i see it, because Cyprus is a small island after-all with a Heritance that deserves its recognition and respect as an Ethnos even older than "Turkish" or "Greek", without (or with for that matter) the vast majority (today), being Greek Cypriot, only a Unitary State defends the Principals that are Universal, to "us", Cypriots as Human beings, in any case. what is possible under a Unitary State, the Constitutional reform of the existing Republic, is (are) Cypriot Constituencies, where Individuals by their own choosing (by where they reside, as Electors) sustain as Persons a National Assembly as well, and its Distinct Identity (; this is Bicommunal). what is taken for granted is that this (these) Liberty does not replace the need for one Identity, because it is Cyprus we Love.

@ erolz, Christofias, you well know, and others gathered to support, and to speak themselves, with her, recently; didn't i post an article about this already?

[Lordo]

rw it planned to be built. i did not make it. unfortunately they did not reveal the cancellation in the same manner that they revealed the fact that it was going to be built.

its not about speaking with dogus, it is about standing up in parliament and saying what dogus said in front of parliament and all the press. while you are at it, what about the matter of enosis voted on 67, has that been removed. i suspect not.

[erolz66]

what is an exaggeration, and what is an outright lie. again i suggest, that you and bill can agree, lies are a very dangerous thing, they are wrong.

cyprus42080-90.html#p787546

does it matter that it is bill that consistently brings us these tidbits,

Bill consistently brings only one kind of 'tidbit' and such behaviour is totally at odds with what Dogus Derya is saying that he claims to 'support'. What Dogus Derya is saying "we should understand each other’s pain" she then goes on to show she is prepared to DO that which she says we need to do (and she is right about) by saying in the TRNC parliament that "many Greek Cypriot women were raped by the Turkish army during the war". Bill has shown over years and years of posting here that he does NOT do that which Dogus Derya says we should do - he in fact does exactly the opposite of this, seeking always to maximise his sides pain and minimise or deny ours. So yes it DOES matter that in a thread where he claims to support what Dogus Derya said, his years and years of posting only selective one sided 'tidbits' is totally at odds with that claimed support.

are you stating that this is not useful to Cypriots if they are Turcophone? what are your really saying;

What I am really saying is that posting only things that suit ones own side alone or can be twisted or edited to suit ones own side alone, as Bill has consistently done for year after year here is not only not useful to Cypriots, TC or GC, who truly seek a better untied future it is in fact also totally in contradiction to what Dogus Derya is actually saying.

is it not also possible that the TMT, and the EOKA, drove Cypriots from their homes, in both cases?

It is possible that the smell from drains drove Cypriots from their homes. It is possible but it is not what actually happened in 1964. The truth of what happened in this period is that "the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity.". The evidence that this is the actual truth is overwhelming. That TC fled their homes because of threats from TMT, or in pursuit of Taksim are just standard GC propaganda lies. TMT did use intimidation of some TC to prevent them returning to their homes once they had fled, this is true and well documented but to 'suggest' that they fled them in the first instance because of intimidation from TMT when the truth is "the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity." is a distortion, a lie. In essence no different to the 'suggestion' from the likes of GiG that my innocent uncle that was taken from his place of work in broad day light by armed ethnic based illegal militias, murdered and dumped in a well 'may' have been because he was a 'tmt terrorist'. A lie and a nasty one at that.

So in a thread where you express support for Dogus Derya for saying "many Greek Cypriot women were raped by the Turkish army during the war" you YOURSELF can not even bring yourself to follow her example and simply admit the truth of what was the overwhelming cause for TC fleeing their homes in 64. Can you see why I use words like 'hypocrisy' yet ?

@ erolz, Christofias, you well know, and others gathered to support, and to speak themselves, with her, recently; didn't i post an article about this already?

And STILL you do not apparently 'get it' rw. Christofias or Bill or you as GC saying you support Dogus Derya when she says "many Greek Cypriot women were raped by the Turkish army during the war" means nothing. It means nothing because her saying this is the 'action', it is her putting into practice herself what she is REALLY saying which is "we should understand each other’s pain". If Christofias (or any other GC politician) really believes this and wanted to show that they supported her and had her bravery they would stand up in the RoC parliament and say "we should understand each other’s pain and that many atrocities were committed against TC by GC in the name of enosis". Just as if YOU really supported what she was actually saying you would not 'suggest' that it is 'possible' that TMT drove TC from their homes in 64 and if Bill really believed it he would not have a 10 year history of one sided postings here that he does have.

[bill cobbett]

Disappointing news for you cousin Vordo...

http://www.kpdailynews.com/index.php/ca ... LOCAL_NEWS

[repulsewarrior]

...well erolz, i guess you have me figured out, it seems you have all of us figured out, but i ask again, what makes us any different, (and i'm talking to you personally since you choose to talk to me personally,) we all must change ourselves, this is natural. i was a young boy when all this happened, yet i lived next door to, as you may describe them Turcophones, although to me they were the family that built their house 150 years before, that it was my family's land before that, and it was given to them to have a home, having spent a lifetime working together with our family. what's left of my family still communicates with these neighbours, and have done so for over forty years despite the fact that the forces against such dialog were overwhelming for decades. we, the village dwellers who continue to care for the trees, and the condition of our homes and each other, respect the fear under which they, our neighbours, live, and the pain they must have felt having to tell us each time, our Heritance piece by piece moved to Turkey by an "Officer", and then another "Officer", and then a "Policeman", now that they know there are murderers living amongst them, too. it is never discussed, the murdered and the missing, and it is what we suffer, in affect, from the same 'Hands', like a class war, because what is "ours" as village dwellers was ended by what is an elite whether they are of Greek, Turkish, or British influence, not Cooperators, Cypriots who saw themselves as "Greeks" like their adversary who see themselves as "Turks", some among them, ruthless opportunists. so, perhaps like so many on the Forum i am not happy to hear the brash "Patriots" from either side express themselves no differently, i am no "Greek", and i am no "Turk", but i try my best to represent the qualities i think a Cypriot can call the best qualities all Human kind strives for. in any society their are elements who see in it an opportunity to plunder its wealth: these are our (read: the rest of "us") enemies.

frankly, the issue, is, the Turkish Army, because it is there to serve with a discipline that represents the very best in Human nature as well. even as a killing machine, discipline, ultimately, is important; any "Turk" (or Turk) worth his bones should understand that; ignoring this is Ignorance (and i remember Solomou specifically because that event demonstrates that such a state of affairs exists). step by step erolz, now, it is naive to think that "you" can also change dates on tombstones, and move mass graves, to hide these facts (to glorify what are lies). i don't know enough about the issue, but for the present regime, it representing Universal Values, is an issue that is stabbed at the heart of its credibility as a result of their own reaction (i am sorry if that offends you). indeed i wish in the debate that follows in a topic such as this, i learn more. in any case, bill's contribution is valuable to all of us, yours should be more valuable in my opinion because you are there, more superior and wise than any of us if you like, better at getting at facts, and clearly, (ie like in Lordo's mistaken assumption), it should not be bill we count on, who should it be therefore? again, i will say that the contribution we make can produce change, and it, our Individual efforts, will remain, even if this Forum is taken down and shelved somewhere for the Academia (like another i will not mention), the facts will be there for those who will eventually need them because "Truth" is like that, as well as what we know, or what we want to know, etc., i believe the Problem will be solved, and i believe that all of us have a part in saying "this" must stop. i am sorry that my words do not provoke the new thinking that's needed for us, as Cypriots, as Human beings, to move our selves forward, and that i instead offend you personally, it is not my intention; i will try harder.

...i won't argue with you, what happened in '63, i told you what is my story, i know what was done is wrong. i find it offensive that you place your position against mine, as a Cypriot, that i am not one; who is? indeed smelly drains, you have your pants in a knot over what bill said, suddenly me and Christofias are to be judged, "you" better (no better) than "us", i ask you, for Cyprus, how is that helpful?

"we should understand each other’s pain and that many atrocities were committed against TC by GC in the name of enosis",
...and wasn't it Christofias when he was President that extended his hand to do exactly that, what a pity Talat would or could not reciprocate.
please erolz, we are all tired, you are tired, you must be, read the last paragraph you wrote to me.

[erolz66]

please erolz, we are all tired, you are tired, ...

I am tired. Bone weary tired after 10+ years on this forum. Tired of the relentless attacks against me (and my community) and tired that those like yourself who profess to place being Cypriot ahead of being Greek or Turkish, do not defend me (and my community) as a Cypriot from these relentless attacks, so that I do not have to.

[repulsewarrior]

erolz, the compromise, if you will, is a Turkish demand for a Bicommunal (and now) Bizonal State; One Cyprus, and what happens within it. what is wrong with a Greek Constituency, it does not exist, why is there a Republic, a Turkish Constituency alone; "Turks", and,the rest of us, how does that represent Bicommunal? i ask these questions, and it has become years for me as well, not because i want to be right, but because it is evident to me that i must ask them. whether the Government we have today represents Cypriots effectively, the answer is easy. however, the solution requires from all of us the willingness to change, to admit that this debate is flawed because the issue is not one of "Greekness" and "Turkishness" but Freedom, beyond the Liberty of "being" someone, that there is a clear intention, for Cyprus, to end the subjugation of it, to act accordingly. indeed, i recognise the Republic of Cyprus, and within it another level of Government, i support Cypriot Constituencies, how is that not supporting the existence of a Turkish Constituency. in my Cyprus, whether i choose to live in any one, of many Constituencies (because enclaves can exist to spot the whole island while the Green Line will remain, because Maronites, Armenians and Latins, and dare i say the British have the same needs as Communities of Greeks and Turks), as Territorial Jurisdictions all over the island, i'll become an Elector in its National Assembly. but, i am a Citizen of the Republic, with an equal vote in its Government, and despite my choices as a Person, where i live and what language i want to hear in my daily life, i am an Individual, above all a Cypriot, with one vote without distinction or discrimination, and as an Individual, i am equally prepared to defend the Universal Principals that the Republic of Cyprus represents.

...you/"you" may want a Turkish state, "Greeks'' i assume want a Greek state, and that is possible. In Cyprus, a Cypriot State must exist, for Cypriots to choose accordingly, don't you think?

[erolz66]

erolz, the compromise, if you will,........

words words words. Where is the action rw ?

If Dogus Derya had just said "we should understand each other’s pain", it would not have been noticed or reported and this thread would not have existed. It was her putting these words into ACTION by also saying "many Greek Cypriot women were raped by the Turkish army during the war".

Your words say one thing rw but your action (and lack of action) here in this forum say another. You welcome and support Bills posts here BECAUSE they are partisan and biased and only focus on Turkey and TC. You quote and praise the likes of Sener Levent as a true Cypriot but you never do the same for the likes of Loucas Charalambous. You talk of a united Cyprus where we all place being Cypriot above being Greek or Turk, yet you do not ever challenge the biggest enemies here of achieving such a future, like GiG. You will challenge me, someone who has a long history of action of working bi communally and yet say nothing to her.

[repulsewarrior]

...dude, i am for Cyprus as one country, and that the respect its Citizens afford each other is no different to the respect they have as Citizens of the World.

...(and since you are getting personal again); lonely, lack of support, dude, look at my track record, who supports me? you can fault anyone, i will add equals and opposites attract, you can bend words, what of it, i can remember saying thank-you to you many times, sending you personal wishes, (pleas; offers to help finance what became a burden to you), what of that too, i am grateful for the participation of many, i'm not counting, i am more grateful that i can share in the dialog. it would not surprise me that bill is at the top of that list, so what? you talk a united Cyprus, i don't think so; you talk of disdain toward me, and it appears toward everyone "else", i have already made it clear that you are better than most at giving expression to your thinking, but where is your contribution, (shelved somewhere) except for the fact that you troll in affect, now. i support the fact that Dogus Derya slammed her point home, indeed i hope that others who act as our representatives, in positions of Leadership, have the same courage to rise above populist sentiments, or Party Line, or Dogma, and to reach in to the Problem itself. your words (and actions) also speak for themselves, if you don't mind me saying so. Mdme. Derya gives to the Turkish Cypriot identity a form which can be supported by "others" (those not "Turkish"), and even if it requires the Humility and Grace of those who feel "Turkishness" is served like Dogma, what is wrong in that? i can support her as a Cypriot, whatever her political leanings, she at least, as an Individual, wants to better herself, i'm not sure but i think on that we can agree, her adversaries (which include "Greeks" as chauvinist) would like the rest of the world to believe that they are perfect the way "they" are.

...we are not enemies erolz, i am sorry that you feel the way you do.