Cyprus-Forum.com

[mehmet]

As some weeks have passed since the original reason for this post occurred what has happened? I have heard no official denial that the story was accurate. Instead something else that was in the interview about a meeting with Serdar Denktas has become the main story. Can I assume Papadopoulos stands by his statement that no Turkish Cypriots were killed between 1963-74?

[MicAtCyp]

Look Metecyp, if you want to continue the discussion making statements, then I can make the oposite statements and have a very nice two way shouting here. Everything you said was discussed already with arguments. Bring your arguments in support of your statements then we talk.

[-mikkie2-]

Lets get a few facts straight.

We can argue the merits or not of Turkeys actions till eternity.

Fact: The first phase of the Turkish invasion was generally accepted by the international community as a valid response to what was happening in Cyprus. Turkey had sympathy at that point in time. However, after the 2nd phase of the operation started, it was clear that Turkey was to go ahead and implement Taksim. It did. It was against the constitution and from that point on till today, sympathy was begrudgingly with the GC side.

Turkey has slowly but surely turned northern Cyprus into a mini Turkey. It is slowly but surely rewriting the history of northern Cyprus. If the TC's are happy with that then fine, you can live with them and suffer the eventual consequence of zero TC's in Cyprus to be replaced by Turks from Anatolia.

As a GC I do not want that. I want to see TC's and GC's living together, not separate, because that in the end is in our mutual interest.

The TC's are paying a price for the 'protection' being offered by Turkey and that price will only increase as time goes on. The GC's have pretty much lost everything and built up what was left to be the thriving Cyprus in the south that we know today. Do you expect us to give to you what we worked so hard to achieve since the invasion and not expect something back in return? We are willing to give for a fair solution but if you are not prepared to give also then that solution will just be a dream.

[insan]

What do you mean re biraber? The fact that we disagree is a reason to pitty one another? You say your arguments I say mine.We may have our own opinions, others hearing us can judge by themselves. I am not asking anyone to cheer me, or pitty you, or vice-versa...

Re birader MicAtCyp. If you've read the letter that was written by Makarios to General Gizikis, in April 1974 and the interview made by him a few months later from the events of 1974; I believe that you couldn't defend the things you said in this thread. Please do read that letter and the interview than we can talk again.

And I repeat from the end of the "war" in August 1974 up until one+ year later that the third Vienna aggreement was signed with which 50,000 TC (42% of their total) went to the Northern part not even one TC was hurt. And nobody would have moved unless they were promised a heaven of stolen and better properties. Do you disagree with that too?

It is true... Why wasn't just a single TC hurt between those dates and a few hundred TCs were mass murdered in mid August 1974. All those extremists arrested by National Guard or they thought that killing more TCs would be a mistake... Or fear of Turkey's highly possible third phase of intervention...

Furthermore please do read the third Vienna agreement and tell me if that can be named a population exchange agreement like many TCs insist to call it.

I've read all those agreements... It is a kind of voluntary population exchange agreement. I don't know why didn't those 200.000 GCs and 50.000 TCs stay at where they live since the Vienna Agreement allowing them to stay if they wished... Most probably the fear of being killed by the extremists and the retaliators.

On the other hand, did you hear any GC calling the 3rd Vienna aggreement an agreement for ethnic cleansing?? When we say ethnic cleansing we refer to what happened to the Northern part during the invasion and not the moving of the TCs to the northern part one year later.....

I heard that they claim 200.000 GCs in North had been forced by Turkish Army to abandon their homes and go South. I think this is a propaganda...

Then also tell me which parts of those agreements Turkey or your side respected and applied.30 years later we had to make a hell lot of fuss just to have one high school running, just because your "democratic authorities" would not permit our enclaved children to have a secondary school education, contrary to the 3rd Vienna agreement and contrary to all international laws and human rights. Have a look at the 2nd movie Erol uploaded to see the clear violation of the 3rd Vienna agreement, and of basic human rights regarding the enclaved GCs.Yianoula had to get separated from 4 of her 5 children!!!

Re birader; first of all, you should know that I'm not from any of the sides. You know that I don't approve the illegal actions and violations of both parties... but if you intentionally just talk about the illegal actions and violations of one side and not the other side. Or you try to say GC side committed less crimes than TC side or likewise Greece vs Turkey; this leads us to a point, "we are better than you" regarding the human rights and democrasy...


Essentially I see no differences among two parties regarding the issues democrasy and human rights. Please have a visit to Cyprus Action Network and read all about the violations of human rights on both sides of the Island, both GC vs TC, TC vs GC, GC vs GC and TC vs TC. But I'm sure you will name that web site the traitors propaganda site as you once said... You don't believe what some web sites expose but you believe what some people say.... You believe what some collumnist say... Though it is your freedom to believe whatever or whoever you want. But if you ignore what Makarios said in his letter to General Gizikis and in his interview; then I think that MicAtCyp believes what he wants to believe. And there are many more things that make me think that you insist on not to see some truths.

For more than a week time I've been asking to you some questions in some threads that if you've answered them the truths regarding those issues would be revealed; but unfortunately you ignored them.


Sorry brother I have suspicions about your attitudes.
[/quote]

[insan]

As a GC I do not want that. I want to see TC's and GC's living together, not separate, because that in the end is in our mutual interest.

Yes. When the majority of GCs would consider TC community their politicaly equal state partner; they may come closer to live together in peace and fight against the provocations of both sides extremists. Otherwise more TCs will flee to abroad and perhaps more settlers will come if the resources of North could feed them. I don't think Turkey will ever make some distinct alterations on her policy about Cyprus problem and I also don't think GC leadership will ever make some distinct alterations on their policy about Cyprus problem. As I said before in this balance of the powers and the interests of the capital owners structure; it will be solved in favour of the strongests. In the age of new colonization Cyprus will be the dominion of the "big boys"; Greeks, Turks, Europeans or whatever... Weaks vs Strongs within and all; there's no way out. Whether if it is solved how the majority of GCs wish or TCs wish.


NEW WORLD ORDER[/quote]

[metecyp]

I heard that they claim 200.000 GCs in North had been forced by Turkish Army to abandon their homes and go South. I think this is a propaganda...

How is this propaganda? Didn't 200.000 GCs leave the north? Did any of these people want to leave voluntarily? I don't think so.

[insan]

How is this propaganda? Didn't 200.000 GCs leave the north? Did any of these people want to leave voluntarily? I don't think so.

Actually the number of GCs who left North and went South is 160.000... Other 40.000 were living along South side of the Greenline and temporarily left the area because of security reasons. Later they returned to your homes.


The others; 160.000 GCs who were living in Northern part of the Island and 50.000 TCs who were living in Southern part of the Island could stay where they were living by taking all probable to be retaliatory actions of some extremists into consideration.


If they have stayed and resisted against all odds, I'm sure a solution would be much easier and sooner.


Just a small number of GCs and TCs dared to stay where they were living. Afterwards, most of the ones who dared to stay; obliged to leave their homes because of the ill treatment, psychological and economical oppressions .


These events took place in 1974s psychological atmosphere. You know what's the mentality of both parties after an eleven years lasted traumatic period. Noone knew what would happen next...


Anyway... shortly to say; in my opinion, both parties extremists and their motherland backers caused all these tragedies in Cyprus... we will keep examining and investigating the events of the past, either a solution has been reached or not.


As I said it many times in my previous posts, the essential of a solution is this:


1- Political equality of two communities on legislative and judicial bodies.
2- Restrictions should be put upon the rights to settlement and buy property in order to keep the balance of the powers.
3- The settlers who came in 1992 and afterwards should be repatriated.
4- The GC refugees and GCs who will return/settle down to Turkish constituent state should be granted full political rights.
5- Presence of a mutually agreed number of foreign troops should be maintained in Cyprus at least, until majority of two communities have got along fairly good with each other.


As I said whether a solution has been reached as TCs or GCs wish; the "big boys" of Cyprus and "big boys" of the capitalist world will never take their grabbing hands off Cyprus.

[Chrisswirl]

There are several facts that have to be accepted by both sides.

FACT Turkish Cypriots WERE killed and mistreated in incidents, mainly before 1974. What happened to the Turkish Cypriot villages should never happen in a democracy, or any free country, an atrocity ready to be replied from Turkey by another atrocity

FACT Greek Cypriots WERE kiled and mistreadted, mainly during 1974

FACT Greeks were forced to move from their homes by Turkish military. Many in the villages just north of the Ammochostos road fled South of it as they thought the Turks wouldn't come, but they did, and they told them to go to Lefkosia. This can be compared to the forced deportion of Greeks from Anatolia

FACT Turkish Cypriots lost land too, and not by choice, it was Turkey's choice

FACT Turkey isn't doing the Turkish Cypriots any favours by flooding the country with Turkish mainland settlers. To help the Turkish Cypriots the most, after they invaded they would have then defended the Turkish Cypriot rights and eventually (as soon as possible) re-established the Republic of Cyprus

Now that we have got over these facts, we need to move forward.

The first aim should be to open new gates and allow more free trade between TC and GC.

The second aim should be the opening of Ammochostos Port to both communities, and Varosha to the Greek Cypriots. The "South" should become the Greek Cyprus State and the "North" the Turkish Cyprus state. Flights direct to Tymbou should be allowed to the EU with the handing back of the villages in Karpasia to Greek Cyprus State and agreement to further territorial exchanges as laid out in the Annan plan. All passports should become "United Cyprus" passports (new ones issued to both sides).

Then, both sides need to cut back their military, with more cutbacks in the future.

There should be a prominent and permanent Greek Cypriot quarter of Keryneia, in exchange for a Turkish Cypriot quarter in Lemesos.

Other territorial exchanged based on the Annan plan should now be undertaken at a steady rate.

A new state should be setup at this point between the GC and TC states, the United Cyprus State. The ball to this should start rolling NOW.

[MicAtCyp]

If you've read the letter that was written by Makarios to General Gizikis, in April 1974 and the interview made by him a few months later from the events of 1974; I believe that you couldn't defend the things you said in this thread.

The problem with you kardes is that you try to draw single conclusions from the past.I ve read so many documents that no single reasoning can explain the events of the period 1960-74. The only thing one can do is to draw out all possibilities lay them on the table and examine whether multiple reasons existed.

I assume you refer to the letter to Gizikis of 2 July 1974 (not of April). I don't know the other interview can you give me a link?
So whats the point? That the leadership of the Army was against Makarios and was planning to get him out of the way? I never questioned that. My question was why? And don't tell me you are absolutely certain it was for Enosis. Nobody can be so sure when multiple evidence points to double Enosis instead.

. Why wasn't just a single TC hurt between those dates and a few hundred TCs were mass murdered in mid August 1974

All killings of TCs (69 people from Tohni+ 15 brought from Ziyi and Mari=84 + some small numbers from other places) happened on 14 of August 1974!! I am surprised you don't know what happened that day! Does the second Attila date ring a bell?

I've read all those agreements... It is a kind of voluntary population exchange agreement...

!!!!!! No comments.

I think this is a propaganda...

!!!!!! No comments again.

Re birader; first of all, you should know that I'm not from any of the sides.

Yes I know and I apologise for making it look that way. I didn't do it intentionally though, I wanted to mean the authorities at the north, not you personally

then I think that MicAtCyp believes what he wants to believe.
And there are many more things that make me think that you insist on not to see some truths.
..............
rry brother I have suspicions about your attitudes.

OK kardes I appreciate and fully respect your honesty.

[insan]

The problem with you kardes is that you try to draw single conclusions from the past.I ve read so many documents that no single reasoning can explain the events of the period 1960-74. The only thing one can do is to draw out all possibilities lay them on the table and examine whether multiple reasons existed.

The fact is that we still couldn't elliminate the illogical and weak possibilities.

I assume you refer to the letter to Gizikis of 2 July 1974 (not of April).

That's right, it had been written on July 2nd.

I don't know the other interview can you give me a link?

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/makarios ... allaci.htm

So whats the point? That the leadership of the Army was against Makarios and was planning to get him out of the way? I never questioned that. My question was why? And don't tell me you are absolutely certain it was for Enosis. Nobody can be so sure when multiple evidence points to double Enosis instead.

There are strong evidences and indications that it was for Enosis. What had Ghizikis told to Makarios? Please read it in his interview. Makarios didn't say anything about double Enosis in his interview... And please have a visit to www.hellas.org and examine the "invasion" timeline(This is perhaps the 4th time I'm repeating it). The war council in Athens was gathered 2 times to declare Enosis as a method to stop intervention of Turkey. Why didn't they invite Turkey to negotiate about double Enosis between the dates 15th and 22nd of July if their aim was double Enosis?

All killings of TCs (69 people from Tohni+ 15 brought from Ziyi and Mari=84 + some small numbers from other places) happened on 14 of August 1974!! I am surprised you don't know what happened that day!

I couldn't understand what you mean? It was you who didn't know the mass murderings of TCs other than who were killed in Tochni... And do you remember that you asked me and I told you the others? The question I've asked was related with thsoe 50.000 TCs who left their homes in south and came to North in 1975.

Does the second Attila date ring a bell?

Yeah... while you were thinking the constitutional order was restored by appointing Klerides as a new president of RoC; hundreds of TCs were being killed in some villages... Were they killed because Turkey launched the second phase of intervention or Turkey launched the second phase of intervention because 100s of TCs were killed in Southern part of the island? Logicaly, the probability of the retaliatory actions against TCs in South and even GCs in North was certain.

!!!!!! No comments.



!!!!!! No comments again.

How you wish...

Yes I know and I apologise for making it look that way. I didn't do it intentionally though, I wanted to mean the authorities at the north, not you personally




OK kardes I appreciate and fully respect your honesty.

Me too. We are still brothers