Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

I thought Tsuk was referring to my link.

I am guessing it was to the link I posted based on the references to Plato in it (and many other philosophers)

The essay you posted did not make much sense to me at all.

No it is not easy and I certainly do not understand it all let along reached a view as it if I agree with it or not but I do think there are some interesting ideas in in. From the bits I think I do grasp I think the author is suggesting that China have not just adopted some western free market ideas but actually are developing a 'new model' that is neither communist nor western free market. One that is a 'genuinely idealistic vision of paternalistic government' and legitimate. So he says of legitimacy

A government is legitimate if and only if the people generally believe that:
(a) Policy is fair (b) Policy is optimal.
By fair we mean reasonably compatible with prevailing moral ideology.
By optimal we mean performing at least as well or better than that all fair alternatives.
By performance we mean increases in the public good, especially economic growth.

And argues that western systems meet criteria but fail on criteria b. He further argues that the Chinese system based n the ' Scientific Development Concept' adopted in 2007 as official policy there meets the requirements of a (without democracy) and b much better than the west does.

Instead of democracy, China employs policy experts, today generally scientists and engineers, who optimize policy in order to maximize goals such as economic growth subject to the fairness constraint, the popular support constraint. Chinese officials are not allowed to use terror, which is egregious "despotic power", such as that employed by Joseph Stalin or Mao Zedong (In Scientific Development Concept see "harmonious" & "liberal").

In the last thirty years these experts have delivered an average annualized GDP growth rate of 10%, approximately matching the "Japanese post war economic miracle", but outclassing it given size and starting point differences. It is an unparalleled achievement, and just as Lipset predicts, Chinese government is consequently hugely popular with the Chinese masses and politically stable.

[GreekIslandGirl]

You should read the article Gig, the arguments put forward are based on Plato

Why settle for "based on Plato" when you can have the real deal?

There are many disguised forms of dis-empowering the masses. And, especially women: and this (since women are the weakest due to their biological duties and suchlike) is no exception. Face it, erolz is experimenting with finding a voice. Good for him but he has nothing new to contribute so far. Asiatic thinking is a good start for Turks, but Greeks are a little ahead ....

[repulsewarrior]

General System Theory offers us, Humanity, a means to define taxation differently, and in effect isn't that what Government is all about? beyond the practice of taxing to raise general funds, it is evolving as a behavioural tool, to effect change in the taxpayer's habits as well. actually, Canada, for its acumen, Cuba, and China, because they have no real Tax Policy (Income Tax), represent the political systems most likely to realise new forms of thinking, what taxes can offer us, which will be emulated by the rest of the world.

Externalities are now measureable, and they can be quantified, based on the principals: user pays, and, you get what you pay for, it is reasonable to expect that a product's 'social cost' would be included in its sale price. and if every good and service was identified by the externalities that are included in their realisation, a Government could finance the work of mitigating these costs. one hopes that the Income Tax in any one of these regimes can be made more easy to understand, a flat rate, based on the Principal of, one man one vote, a measure of the actual cost of Good Government, and not the policies in which these governments are involved; something like a Goods and Services Tax which is infinitely variable serves this purpose better.

[Lordo]

did i read somewhere here that the communists in cyprus were responsible for the 74 intervention.

[Paphitis]

did i read somewhere here that the communists in cyprus were responsible for the 74 intervention.

Yep you sure did buster. Communists are so self loathing. I just knew you were one Lordo.

[Lordo]

did i read somewhere here that the communists in cyprus were responsible for the 74 intervention.

Yep you sure did buster. Communists are so self loathing. I just knew you were one Lordo.

you is one 4 headed revisionist son.

[Paphitis]

did i read somewhere here that the communists in cyprus were responsible for the 74 intervention.

Yep you sure did buster. Communists are so self loathing. I just knew you were one Lordo.

you is one 4 headed revisionist son.

No I am not. I was being serious.

NATO was extremely concerned about the USSR and it's influence in the East Med. The communists actually believed they were untouchable and that the USSR will come to the rescue.

The Americans wanted Makarios out and they instigated or supported the coup.

[Oceanside50]

Paphitis, leaving aside that your link is one of the most poorly written articles I have ever read, I would even go so far as to call it drivel, I'll address the main point as far as I can see, namely the calculation problem. This is something that deserves a proper study and there are numerous well written articles (as opposed to your one) that deal with it from both the left and the right. It is the right's most coherent argument against the Soviet Model and was first put forward by Hayek. There are two strands to the argument, the weak one and the strong one. Your article focuses on the weak one, the idea that it is too computationally intensive to solve the equations necessary for managing an economy. I recommend reading the work of Paul Cockshott to see that computationally the problem is perfectly solvable with todays computers. The strong argument is more interesting and is to do with the idea that the market acts as a kind of democracy, albeit a biased one, whereby what is produced is the result of everyone voting, i.e. spending money, on the products that they want. To my mind, failing to address this problem was the reason for the economic failure of the Soviet Union. In recent years there has been some suggestion that some form of peer-to-peer networking could address this, but the ideas have yet to be fleshed out. In other words it is an open problem, and this is why any attempt to impose communism at this stage in Cyprus would be premature. AKEL know this, which is why they are playing a purely caretaker role at present. There's a lot more I could add on the subject of communism, but let us see what you make of Paul Cockshott's work first.

What about this Tsakoue?


A cooperative ("coop") or co-operative ("co-op") is an autonomous association of people who voluntarily cooperate for their mutual social, economic, and cultural benefit.

There are a few coops in Cyprus, agricultural and banking. What if you took the coop concept to a global scale.. The Internet could unite farmers throughout the world rather then regional like you guys are saying.. A farmer in Iowa could be in a coop that included farmers from Thailand for instance. Why think regionally when the concept could go global?

[Lordo]

nice idea but not practical. coop has to operate locally.

[Oceanside50]

nice idea but not practical. coop has to operate locally.

why?