Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

I am all for the maximum number of refugees getting back their properties but the realities we have before us have to be taken into account.

Can you explain to us what realities we have before us that have to be taken into account??

The Land distribution issue for permanant partition should be assessed by an international court to establish the exact ownership of land which goes back to the 1940 50 60 when there are many disputed ownership issues, would you be open to this idea? If it revealed that TCs own approx 28-30% of the land would you accept that?
The percentage also has to take into account the practacalities of a country surviving eg ports, population growth, future development, arable land, coast line.

Can anyone explain to me what land disputes from the 1940's, 50's and 60's is this raven talking about? When did the TCs have any land issues with the British, and why they didn't raise them in 1960 when they accepted and signed the 1960 agreements? Why they didn't say a word then, and they bring up such an issue now?

Viewpoint, you know what you will get in the end of the day? Nothing! Nothing because you are too greedy and you want to grab way too much more than you deserve and own!

[zan]

Can anyone explain to me what land disputes from the 1940's, 50's and 60's is this raven talking about? When did the TCs have any land issues with the British, and why they didn't raise them in 1960 when they accepted and signed the 1960 agreements? Why they didn't say a word then, and they bring up such an issue now?

You call that a reasonable argument? The Ottoman Empire was crumbling and the Turks had no power to defend their rights in Cyprus. The Island was annexed to the British to ensure that Turkeys borders were not threatened again. If it were not the greed of Makarios, Grivas and Greece wanting ENOSIS none of this would have happened and Cyprus would have remained whole. You blame others for being greedy and conveniently forget what started all this. Don’t give me any crap about the Ottomans starting it because they were out of the equation by then. This is all the fault of Greece and the GC terrorists. We have 37% of the land because of Greek policy the sooner you get that into your head the more easy you will sleep. Turkey is going nowhere just yet and if they can find a way around this EU issue they will never go away. I have no say in that and neither have you. Making idle threats to people who happen to disagree with your distorted views is not going to change a thing. Your a foul mouthed idiot who has no idea what is going on, You have been left to abuse every body here for far too long. If you don’t want to join in with a civilised discussion then don’t but your foul mouth is getting too much.

[Kifeas]

Can anyone explain to me what land disputes from the 1940's, 50's and 60's is this raven talking about? When did the TCs have any land issues with the British, and why they didn't raise them in 1960 when they accepted and signed the 1960 agreements? Why they didn't say a word then, and they bring up such an issue now?

You call that a reasonable argument? The Ottoman Empire was crumbling and the Turks had no power to defend their rights in Cyprus. The Island was annexed to the British to ensure that Turkeys borders were not threatened again. If it were not the greed of Makarios, Grivas and Greece wanting ENOSIS none of this would have happened and Cyprus would have remained whole. You blame others for being greedy and conveniently forget what started all this. Don’t give me any crap about the Ottomans starting it because they were out of the equation by then. This is all the fault of Greece and the GC terrorists. We have 37% of the land because of Greek policy the sooner you get that into your head the more easy you will sleep. Turkey is going nowhere just yet and if they can find a way around this EU issue they will never go away. I have no say in that and neither have you. Making idle threats to people who happen to disagree with your distorted views is not going to change a thing. Your a foul mouthed idiot who has no idea what is going on, You have been left to abuse every body here for far too long. If you don’t want to join in with a civilised discussion then don’t but your foul mouth is getting too much.

All the things you just said above, amount to only one big pile of rubbish!
As for who is a foul mouth idiot that has no idea of what is going on, I suggest you look at your bedroom's mirror and you will see him inside, gazing at you! You are the biggest ignorant and idiot in the forum!! Your turkey will never get around this issue, no matter how much it manoeuvres, swings and twists herself around!

As for your ottoman empire -which you so much miss but which fortunately is now dead and buried, and what percentage of land you -the Ottoman Turks, had during its occupation time, ...hear this! Before the Ottomans occupied Cyprus, you had 0% (zero) percent of land ownership in Cyprus, and this is what you should have nowadays, because whatever you took, you stole it from us the Cypriots!

[zan]

Perfection again Kifeas. Idle non-specific and immature. The facts are there baby, read them and weep. If you want a reasonable discussion from me then stop your ranting and lies and your misconceptions then come back to me. If we can’t even get past the facts of history then you are not worth talking to.

[Kifeas]

Perfection again Kifeas. Idle non-specific and immature. The facts are there baby, read them and weep. If you want a reasonable discussion from me then stop your ranting and lies and your misconceptions then come back to me. If we can’t even get past the facts of history then you are not worth talking to.

There is absolutely no historical fact that supports any of your claims! If there was, your community’s leadership and /or Turkey would have raised it in 1960, when you were conducting, agreeing and signing the 1960 agreements! All the rest is just Rubbish that you invented afterwards! During the early 1900's, your community had about 23-24% of the private land ownership. However, many of your community's members decided to live Cyprus during this early period after the British took over, and went back to turkey -where they came from, and subsequently SOLD any /all of their immovable properties in Cyprus. By 1960, when Cyprus became an independed Republic, the ratio of private property (land) ownership between the members of two communities was approximately the same as their population ratio.

In fact the TCs had slightly less than their population ratio, mainly because the majority of them were civil servants for the British colonial government and subsequently for the newly founded RoC. In 1974, the land ownership in Cyprus is the one I posted as a table in this thread, and this is the data of the official Land registry of the RoC which the UN and the ECHR recognise as the only accurate source of ownership records, as this is evident in the UN SC resolutions, the Annan plan’s technical specifications and the background data that was /is accepted by the ECHR as a basis upon which it obtains its property related decisions and rulings in relation to Cyprus. By the way, you just lost one more case today, that of Aresti Xenides Vs Turkey.

[Viewpoint]

Simon

Cyprus is recognised as one nation. You cannot go invading that nation, then ethnically cleanse that nation, then say that's OK, we've got our own state now, we'll just give you some compensation.

I understand your viewpoint but let me just remind you that all the things you state above have actually happened, it just a difference of opinion when you consider Turkeys action as an invasion and I believe it was intervention to bring to an end an explosive situation which threatened the well being of all TCs on the island. Sorry to burst your bubble but we have our own state its called the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, it maynot not be recognized but its alive and kicking we live here in peace and security. We have been around for 32 years and at this rate we could be around for a good many years to come.

If you don't want to live in a place where you are the minority, you don't go invading that place, or demand a 50:50 split. You leave that place. Just like if the Kurds don't like the fact that their a minority in Turkey, are you going to give them a 50:50 share. What would you say to a Kurd who said they don't like living in a country dominated by Turkey and want their own state. YOU WOULD TELL THEM TO LEAVE, WOULDN'T YOU?

Im not going to live anywhere else but in North Cyprus its where I belong, love and feel safe. The days where we considered ourselves a minority and had a 70/30% agreement with your community are over, we had the chance to make that work 45 years ago and we missed that opportunity. Now we have a totally different situation and there are 2 communties trying to agree how we could possibly unite under a BBF, but it appears we are far from ever agreeing to a solution that would meet both sides demands.

GCs continually bring up the Kurd issue, just answer this question, did the Kurds ever sign an Agreement with the Turks? for example like the one we had back in 1960. If the answer is no then their situation is totally different from ours.

The EU is totally different from Cyprus. It is made up of 25 independent states that have come together for a common purpose. Therefore, they retain their veto. Cyprus is not even recognised as two separate states

So are you willing to give up your veto rights and accept whatever the larger nations decide about your future? Wouldnt we come together for the common purpose of all Cypriots?

Cyprus is recognized as a major problem, a headache for the EU, call it waht you wish but the reality is it is a divided island, with a totally GC leadership in the south and toally TC leadership in the north. Thats called reality which is what is before us, denying it doesnt make it go away.

You do have a right to live in Cyprus. Nobody is disputing that. But Cyprus was one state before any invaders came. It must be again.

You lost that chance in 1974, everything has changed and will never be the same. If we should ever come to a point where both communites want to reunite then there will be a lot of compromise on both sides, are you willing to compromise?

That says it all. You believe in ethnic cleansing and illegal occupation being legalised also?

I believe in living peacefully for all Cypriots, just like today my main priority is safety, I do not want to feel threatened. Secondly I do not want to live in a society where I am a second class citizen and discriminated against for being a TC... the other issues like property and economic development and property etc come further down my list of priorities.

The division and "ethnic cleansing" as you like to refer to it, is only the result of our unwillingness and inability to live and work together, to make it work. Again we had that chance back in 1960, you should have made it work then, that train left a long time ago.
What makes you so sure we can do that today?? if people on this forum are anything to go by we have not changed at all and still appear to pay lip service to wanting a really united Cyprus but harbour vegence and dominance agendas like your goodself.

IF, partition is the only way forward (I don't believe it is) and TCs proved they owned this land, then yes. It should never be anymore than 30% however, because this would then be too disproportionate to the population percentages. But what if this land was spread throughout Cyprus? Wouldn't that mean TCs living with GCs anyway?

If we are agreeing permenant partition then the land has to one mass you cannot have a country distributed in pieces all over the island. The only way this can happen is for TCs to return the agreed % so that incorporates as much refugee property as possible just like the Annan plan.

I really have problems understanding GCs perception of TCs, they run us into the ground on every issue which concerns our community and they persist with wanting to pull apart the TRNC and scatter the TCs all over the island. Then they say they want to live with us in a united Cyprus, why???? If we are as bad as you make us out to be then why the hell do you want to live with us, be truthful its cant be because you love us I have my own theory of course it must be the potentail waelth of the north noth to do with TCs, we are just and inconvenience you would have to bear to get to your ultimate goal of more land and more wealth. Dont you guys realize the effect this has on us??
We dont trust GCs, with our future, well being or adminstration, how do we rid ourselves of these fears? when all GCs promote (the few being the exception) is a GC dominated state with TCs as a minority. It pushes us further and further away do you realize this?

[zan]

Makarios usurped all power in spite of the bi-communal nature of the constitution. He presented himself on the world stage as a smiling priest-statesman, the constitutional head of Cyprus, while at home he persecuted the Turks and divested them of their constitutional and human rights. The injustices done to the Turks for the following eleven years or so were myriad. Many of them either abandoned their homes and properties, or were driven out of them, and had to take refuge in the refugee camps in the Turkish enclave of Nicosia. There were some twenty-four thousand of them. Their plight and cries of anguish went unheeded. When some of them from Ormorphita, a suburb of Nicosia, wanted to take the risk of going back to their looted homes the response from the Greek side transmitted through the local Greek Press was historic, "what is taken after bloodshed is not given back." Ironically, the blood in question was that of the defenceless Turkish Cypriot residents of Ormorphita. It was to remain a ghost town for eleven years until liberated by the Turkish Peace Force in August, 1974.

Besides physical and political persecution the Turks also suffered economic persecution. For example, near Kyrenia the Greeks grabbed the commercial fruit and vegetable garden of a Turkish peasant and cut down the trees to set up a military barrack there, turning it into a parched and barren land. In contrast the Greek-owned gardens around remained green and untouched. The Turkish owner got not a penny of compensation. Again, when the new Kyrenia-Nicosia road was being built, parts of the fields through which the road passed were unceremoniously confiscated. The Turkish peasants who lost chunks of their fields and livelihoods in this way got no compensation at all, while their Greek counterparts were promptly and fully compensated. It was useless for the Turks to protest, as they could get no redress.

In his own country the Turkish Cypriot was less than a foreigner: the Turk had far fewer rights, like those of life, limb, property. It was the active national policy of the Makarios's Administration to deprive Turks of their lands by any means, fair or foul. It is an indication of the Greek sense of justice and compatriotship that some unscrupulous foreigners were even encouraged to (harass Turkish villagers living in Greek-held areas in order to buy off their lands. Any foreigner who succeeded in that would win immediate favour with the Makarios regime. The Turks, who have always been largely an agricultural Community living off the land, have traditionally owned a high proportion of land in Cyprus, and this was a sty in the eye for the Greeks claiming Cyprus to be Greek. Any Greek who wanted to sell his land or house to a Turk would incur the wrath of the Greek Authorities. Such a transaction would not be sanctioned by the Greek-run Land Registration Department, which would refuse to issue a deed of title, an odd behaviour indeed by those proclaiming to be the Government of Cyprus.

All these happened during the regime of Archbishop Makarios. Many Turks who could not stand the conditions of life sold up what little they had, at what little price they could get, and emigrated. To the Greek Administration, this was, after all, the point of the exercise.

Kifeas
How do you put all the land mentioned here into your equation. I will hazard a guess and say you will dismiss it and say it is just propaganda.
Well let me take an example of the text above and quote to you the cold harsh truthes that the TCs of the time were given by the GCs.

Greek side transmitted through the local Greek Press was historic, "what is taken after bloodshed is not given back