Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Kifeas

Rauf Denktas has the papers for the 32.8% for his time. But here are some that I have found. Independant source from England. (I have a feeling........)Any way.

Kifeas wrote

Nevertheless, are you asking about the percentage of land ownership in 1974, in 1960, in 1900, or 1571?

Where did you find the 32.8% of TC ownership?

In Cyprus, Turks and Turkish-Cypriots owned almost 100% of the land when the British arrived. During the period of British colonial rule their holdings were gradually reduced so that by the time of independence in 1960 they were registered owners of only about 30% of the land. It is therefore true that today they occupy more land than they owned at the time of independence but land areas are meaningless in themselves.

http://www.mediaprof.org/tcvoices/bowpart3.html[/b]

[Viewpoint]

Exactly VP and Eric, now you have shown your true colours. You would rather partition than proportional representation. Why, because you seem to just blatantly deny the fact that the TCs are the minority and just want to grab as much as you can. 18% IS A MINORITY, IF YOU HAVE A SENSIBLE ARGUMENT TO SUGGEST THAT THE TCs SHOULD HAVE 50%, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME. And don't say its because you can't trust GCs etc, because back in 1974, Greece had a military junta. That is not the case now and certainly won't be again now Greece is a part of the EU. Therefore, any sort of coup is hardly likely is it.

Eric was saying if we are all Cypriot, 50:50 shouldn't be a problem. So if we are all Cypriot, we wouldn't need any proportional representation anyway and the Cypriots can just elect who they want. But you reject that, aswell as propertional representation. THEREFORE, THE ONLY SOLUTION YOU FAVOUR IS PARTITION. It is so clear and anyone on the outside who can't see it must be blind. You demand an unreasonable proportion of power-sharing so that the partition can remain.

Therefore, it is pointless trying to negotiate with people who do not believe in equitable solutions, justice and fairness. The only way the GCs will get their land back is by force.

Finally, Pantheman is absolutely right. I would just like to take that point a step further and say, Turkey wouldn't even have a look in on the Cyprus issue today, if it wasn't for Britain originally, and the US today, allowing them to. Why? Because of Turkey's strategic position. That's justice for you.

Simon I have never concealed the fact that after the referendum I came the the stark conclusion that Cypriots do not want a solution because neither side possess the vision, desire or capablities to bring about a solution that will satisfy both sides enough to commit too 100% and ensure that it functions. We are Cypriots all pig headed to a level of insanity. So when I joined this forum I wanted to test my decision by reading what GCs have to say, unfortunately to date beside a very few they have disappointed me to a degree that rubber stamps my belief that recognized partition is the only real solution before us, which would ensure that we do not encounter the problems of the past. We have the partition part in place right now all we would have to do is agree the land distribution/compensation and make a clean break. You go your way we go ours, its really just legalization of whats happening now. GCs would not have to share political power or their wealth and we would not be a minority in our own country ruled the numerical larger GCs.

Simon you have to come to terms with the fact that we are 2 major communities on the island trying to agree a solution so any political decsions taken effect us both so why shouldnt I have just as much say as you, why should I put my and my childrens futures purely in the hands of GCs who we feel will not serve our best interests.

But this to one side you would not have to worry about proportional representation or sharing 50% of anything, you can run your own show just as you do today.

[Simon]

Simon you have to come to terms with the fact that we are 2 major communities on the island trying to agree a solution so any political decsions taken effect us both so why shouldnt I have just as much say as you, why should I put my and my childrens futures purely in the hands of GCs who we feel will not serve our best interests.

You would have just as much say as any GC, you would have the right to run for elections, freedom of religion, choose what school your children go to etc. Just like you would in any other country and your interests would be represented proportionately. If you want to live in an island that is predominately GC, you are going to have to accept that you are a minority. That does not stop you being a major community and does not give you any less rights as an individual.

It is right that we are two major communities. But you have to realise that the GCs are a much larger community in Cyprus. You cannot justify a 50:50 power share when TCs make up 18% of the population. That is just not right and not fair. In that case, TCs would be representing GCs and GCs would not have any choice in the matter. That is not democracy.

You clearly favour partition because you clearly do not believe in a united Cyprus which is fairly represented by all sides. In that case, you are also justifying ethnic cleansing and an illegal invasion. GCs should not have to accept compensation, they should be allowed to return to their homes. However, if permanent partition is the only solution, then you should retreat to just 18% of the island, so this at least matches the percentage of your population. 37% is too much and at least this would allow some GCs to return to their homes.

[Viewpoint]

Simon the mere fact that we would be living in GC dominated country scares the shit out of me and many TCs, this is based on our dark history and your current leaders negative stance towards our community. The right for us to be elected and be represented is a joke the numerically larger GC community would ensure that the minimum of TCs would be elected therefore maintaing GC dominance over TCs, we would be at your mercy would you want this if you were a TC?. If you have children would you like them live under such representation? Id rather stay as we are than live in the solution you seek a GC state with TCs as a minority. The TCs have to have representation where they will not be disregarded and allowed to voice their own communities concerns and needs.

Can you please tell me why we have these concerns?? why is that we dont trust GCs to serve our best interests?

Your minorities arguement does not hold water as there are many examples where minorities have powers that exceed their numerical numbers, a prime example being the EU.

You must also take into account that we had a partnership agreement back in 1960, which unfortunately for all Cypriots did not work out due to hidden agendas of both sides which fuelled one another.
This is an agreement which back then you felt was unbalanced in our favour but today you hold the "RoC" so close to your hearts and have found your "Cypriotness" better late than never i say, pity you did not bond and work with TCs towards a Cypriot identity.

Now after 30 years things have changed we have all changed, we TCs still do not trust GCs to a degree that would allow us to jump into the black hole of living as a minority in GC dominated state.
We are and will always be partners because Cyprus belongs to all of us, we messed up when we attempted a unitary Cyprus and the only thing that has really brought peace and i mean no killings no discrimination etc is what we have now seperation obviously if 2 communites cannot live together in peace they should be allowed to live sperately in peace with equal opportunites to prosper on this beautiful island. But we are denied certain opportunites due to isolation, this you may say should be the price we have to pay for taking your land, where do you expect us to live? we have the right to live here to. If we are not able to live together which have proved in the past then surely I have the same right has you to live in an area where I do not feel threatened discriminated against and at risk.

I clearly believe in partition because I have given up hope of finding the utopia Cyprus solution you seek, there is no magic formula that will make all Cypriots live together happily ever after. What we feel comfortable with you oppose and vise versa, and this union cannot be forced by your leaders who feel that the EU will take us towards normalisation, well think again TCs are no push over and will never agree to anything they do not want or believe in.

Simon TCs cant wave a magic wand and have all GCs refugees go back to their properties, this is not physically possible some will have to accept compensation and other rememdies. The speed of how and when the refugees get something is really up to you as much as me, just think about that.

I am all for the maximum number of refugees getting back their properties but the realities we have before us have to be taken into account. The Land distribution issue for permanant partition should be assessed by an international court to establish the exact ownership of land which goes back to the 1940 50 60 when there are many disputed ownership issues, would you be open to this idea? If it revealed that TCs own approx 28-30% of the land would you accept that?
The percentage also has to take into account the practacalities of a country surviving eg ports, population growth, future development, arable land, coast line.

[zan]

You would have just as much say as any GC, you would have the right to run for elections, freedom of religion, choose what school your children go to etc. Just like you would in any other country and your interests would be represented proportionately. If you want to live in an island that is predominately GC, you are going to have to accept that you are a minority. That does not stop you being a major community and does not give you any less rights as an individual.

Wonderful if that majority is sensitive to that substantial minorities needs and demands. It is that pig headed majority rule that has got us into this position in the first place. The likes of Piratis saying that if the majority wants ENOSIS then that is what should happen. Well they tried that once and we know what happened. When Greece and the RoC stop persecuting the minorities then some of trust can be made. Please don’t say, ”what minorities are being persecuted”. If you haven’t seen all the newspaper reports and the law changes that are to the detriment of Turks and or other minorities then I don’t know what to say to you. Also before you go on about the Turks doing the same I would remind you that it is you who are asking for us to give up all we have fought for and people have died for and come under your rule. What happens in Turkey has got nothing to do with your argument.

It is right that we are two major communities. But you have to realise that the GCs are a much larger community in Cyprus. You cannot justify a 50:50 power share when TCs make up 18% of the population. That is just not right and not fair. In that case, TCs would be representing GCs and GCs would not have any choice in the matter. That is not democracy.

I can by saying that the alternative would be to give the power of veto to the TCs and I don't like the veto option. The veto has been a major problem in the EU and can be used to hold the entire nation to ransom. 50/50 government with a majority vote from both sides in order to pass a motion can only benefit both sides. Not one side’s government is going to encourage their voters to vote against a reasonable motion without doing damage to them selves. It would also be pointless trying to get unreasonable motions passed because they would fall at the first vote. It will protect both sides. It cannot be detrimental to the GC side at all. The only thing that is holding it back is when people keep saying it is not fair. If you look at it with more of an open mind it will help the GC side more than you think in that it will be more voter friendly rather than government dictated.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas

Rauf Denktas has the papers for the 32.8% for his time. But here are some that I have found. Independant source from England. (I have a feeling........)Any way.

Kifeas wrote

Nevertheless, are you asking about the percentage of land ownership in 1974, in 1960, in 1900, or 1571?

Where did you find the 32.8% of TC ownership?

In Cyprus, Turks and Turkish-Cypriots owned almost 100% of the land when the British arrived. During the period of British colonial rule their holdings were gradually reduced so that by the time of independence in 1960 they were registered owners of only about 30% of the land. It is therefore true that today they occupy more land than they owned at the time of independence but land areas are meaningless in themselves.

http://www.mediaprof.org/tcvoices/bowpart3.html

I hope you are not seriously thinking that I am going to reply to any of that crap and nonsense that you claimed and /or quoted above! If you ever wish to have a serious discussion with me on any issue, please let me know!

[zan]

Oh yes I forgot Cyprus did not exist before 1974. What was I thinking.

You just keep ignoring anything remotely different to what you want Kifeas. Facts are facts mate, no matter how much they upset you. You want it all your own way, Makarios wanted it all his own way..............the rest is history.

[Kifeas]

Oh yes I forgot Cyprus did not exist before 1974. What was I thinking.

You just keep ignoring anything remotely different to what you want Kifeas. Facts are facts mate, no matter how much they upset you. You want it all your own way, Makarios wanted it all his own way..............the rest is history.

I repeat it again mate, whenever you decide to get serious and thus also wish to contact a serious discussion with me, just let me know! I assume that you have the capacity of contacting serious discussions, some times!

[peace4cyprus]

War is never the answer. War creates more suffering and human suffering is always the same no matter which "side" suffers.

We do not need a war. What we need is people that will ask for forgiveness and forgive others.

I believe all refugees can return in a peaceful way. What we need is a period of peaceful coexistence that will allow the two communities to trust each other again.

[Simon]

Id rather stay as we are than live in the solution you seek a GC state with TCs as a minority. The TCs have to have representation where they will not be disregarded and allowed to voice their own communities concerns and needs.

Let me just let you into a little secret VP. Cyprus is recognised as one nation. You cannot go invading that nation, then ethnically cleanse that nation, then say that's OK, we've got our own state now, we'll just give you some compensation. The TCs have always been a minority in Cyprus and therefore they should be represented as such. If you don't want to live in a place where you are the minority, you don't go invading that place, or demand a 50:50 split. You leave that place. Just like if the Kurds don't like the fact that their a minority in Turkey, are you going to give them a 50:50 share. What would you say to a Kurd who said they don't like living in a country dominated by Turkey and want their own state. YOU WOULD TELL THEM TO LEAVE, WOULDN'T YOU?

Your minorities arguement does not hold water as there are many examples where minorities have powers that exceed their numerical numbers, a prime example being the EU.

Lets stop talking silly now. The EU is totally different from Cyprus. It is made up of 25 independent states that have come together for a common purpose. Therefore, they retain their veto. Cyprus is not even recognised as two separate states. It is only two separate states today because of an illegal occupation. Therefore, my argument does hold water.

But we are denied certain opportunites due to isolation, this you may say should be the price we have to pay for taking your land, where do you expect us to live? we have the right to live here to.

You do have a right to live in Cyprus. Nobody is disputing that. But Cyprus was one state before any invaders came. It must be again.

I clearly believe in partition

That says it all. You believe in ethnic cleansing and illegal occupation being legalised also?

If it revealed that TCs own approx 28-30% of the land would you accept that?

IF, partition is the only way forward (I don't believe it is) and TCs proved they owned this land, then yes. It should never be anymore than 30% however, because this would then be too disproportionate to the population percentages. But what if this land was spread throughout Cyprus? Wouldn't that mean TCs living with GCs anyway?

Zan, I believe I have also dealt with most of your arguments here also.