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[Get Real!]

Amnesty International:

Israeli forces displayed ‘callous indifference’ in deadly attacks on family homes in Gaza

http://amnesty.org/en/news/israeli-forc ... 2014-11-05

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

I can understand what you say but our thought processes are different.

As you say, for Israel to attack a US ship is inconceivable so you take the report as being accurate because to think otherwise would be just too incredible and tantamount to a ‘conspiracy theory’. So you go for the official version as being viable. But I never trust what I read without applying some analytical need for evidence to support the official story. (MH17 being another recent event where the ‘official’ explanation has holes in it big enough to fly a 777 through!!!)

My first question is “So why did they?” Of course nobody can answer that, at least not at our level of awareness, so I go through what we do know to see if there are any credible indications of why the Israeli’s made what the report says was a mistake:

• There was an Israeli recon flight about an hour before the attack.
• To send out aircraft to check it out, the Israeli’s had obviously picked up the vessel on RADAR?
• As the Liberty’s communications were being jammed the Israeli’s would most likely have known the frequencies used by US Spy ships and the US Navy in general?
• It has to be assumed that as the recon aircraft came close enough for the Liberty crew to see the pilots and wave to them, the pilots could also see that the crew were not at battle stations?
• We also have to assume that these were highly trained military pilots and would know the difference between a rowing boat and an aircraft carrier?
• Presumably they were there to positively identify the ship?
• So it is reasonable to assume they saw a grey military vessel, with US ident and flying a US flag?
• Maybe they even saw that the crew were all in US Navy fatigues and had white, and some black faces, not ‘Arabic’?
• They would have noted the speed and direction of Liberty …….. NW at 4-5 knots and that it was some 20 nautical miles from the coast?
• They would have seen that it was not a combat ship as there was no long range offensive weaponry, only 0.5 inch defensive machine guns?
• The ship made no hostile moves against the aircraft although the pilots would have been aware that they had been picked up on Liberty’s RADAR?
• They must also have been aware that the vessel was in International waters and posed no direct threat?

So these highly skilled military pilots flew back to base and reported that it was an Egyptian vessel and posed some sort of threat to Israeli forces! This is where the credibility of the official story falls apart, it does not make sense ...... at least to me! Taking these assumptions as perfectly rational and the evidence of the crew telling it as they saw it at the time, makes the official version somewhat lacking in credibility, in my opinion.

On the other hand why would the Israeli’s attack a US Naval vessel in International waters has no credible explanation as any evidence that would explain that event has long since gone through the shredder!

We can only make up our minds by looking for evidence/explanations in what we have access to. It is all down to degrees of probability and I think that overall someone is concealing the truth but we will never know, at least not until nobody’s ass can get kicked for their action or inaction!

No Arab,

I take the report issued from official channels such as the USN Investigation and that of the IDF. Both investigation teams had contradictory findings from the other but the general just based on all the evidence including the communications between the IAF aircraft and their command and control was that the Israelis identified the ship as Egyptian.

Your "eyewitness" accounts from understandably emotionally charged survivors just did not hold up to the scrutiny when it was up against recorded tapes by a USN EC-121 and the evidence submitted by the Usraelis.

This does not absolve Israel of its culpability of criminal negligence and that is all, and perhaps a breakdown in Command and Control as well as a breakdown in their Intelligence apparatus. In fact these tragedies generally occur as a result of a vast number of breakdowns in a fluid environment. You can't attribute blame against a particular pilot or pilots because the failures also occured on the USS Liberty and its Captain for not communicating their position to the Israelis. But let's go beyond the pilots and the Captain of USS Liberty. The failures go all the way up to the Pentagon and its liaison officers and the Israeli Ministry of Defence.

The crew could wave at an I comming aircraft but you could hear it from 30 miles away. A Mirage III would not get that close to see any flag or the ship's number and if it did, the ship would be a flash.

There are no degrees of probability. Only the findings and the recommendations.

Any Egyptian Ships including those in International waters posed a threat. Israeli could quite legitimately attack them and sink them but on that day they got a friendly. It could have been a Cypriot, Turkish or Greek Ship.

In Afghanistan, the Americans called in an Airstrike on Australian SAS. Australian Sygnals picked up the traffic and 2 SAS soldiers went to investigate because they were unaware of any unfriendlies. They looked over the valley and the target was in fact 17 SAS Landrovers. The American aircraft were at most only 2 minutes away if not seconds when some frantic SAS voices were cursing the Americans and the strike was aborted.

How do you think that would have gone down if they killed our SAS?

[Lordo]

what happened else where is for another thread. this was no friendly fire.

there is an unanswered question here though. why did america not only take no action against israel but actually made greater effort to cover it up. why is the question. is it for something which was relevant to 1967 or is it relevant to this day. that is the question regarding this incident.

[Paphitis]

There were 13 investigations into the incident. Some military and non military investigations alike and all concluded without a shadow of doubt that this incident was an accident and it was caused by many factors.

The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake.

13 investigations - 10 by the USA.

On June 8, 1967, the fourth day of the Six-Day War, the Israeli high command received reports that Israeli troops in El Arish were being fired upon from the sea, presumably by an Egyptian vessel, as they had a day before. The United States had announced that it had no naval forces within hundreds of miles of the battle front on the floor of the United Nations a few days earlier; however, the USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, arrived in the area, 14 miles off the Sinai coast, as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling and war planes and torpedo boats attacked, killing 34 members of the Liberty's crew and wounding 171.

Israeli forces were attacked from the sea. The Pentagon reported that there were no US assets for hundreds of miles. The 6th fleet left the area to stay away from any Soviet Forces as Johnson feared an escalation which will result in a US/USSR clash.

However, the USS Liberty was only 14 miles off the Israeli Coast. The American Ship did not receive any order to leave the area and be at least 100 miles away from the Israeli Coast - Communications Failure.

The IDF was informed by the Americans that there were no American Ships or Aircraft in the area.

Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel. For example, the Liberty was first reported - incorrectly, as it turned out - to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault.

The flag was drooped and not easily visible.

The Captain tesified that the flag was destroyed after the first IAF attack on the ship.

According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin's memoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore. The day fighting began, Israel had asked that American ships be removed from its coast or that it be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels. The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai. (For the most comprehensive analysis, see A. Jay Cristol, The Liberty Incident, Washington, D.C.: Brassey's Inc., 2002;Yitzhak Rabin, The Rabin Memoirs, CA: University of California Press, 1996, pp. 108-110.)

There were Standing Orders from Rabin himself that any unidentified vessel near the shore is to be attacked. As a result, Israel ordered that all American Ships leave the area and the Americans complied but the orders never reached the USS Liberty.

A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. After the air raid, Israeli torpedo boats identified the Liberty as an Egyptian naval vessel. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis, they responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors.

Yes it was the Torpedo boats that identified the Ship as Egyptian and not the Pilots. They would not be able to see any Flag or the Ships number and probably relied on the Ships type designator and confused with Ships that were then serving the Egyptian Navy.

Initially, the Israelis were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting (Dan Kurzman, Soldier of Peace: The Life of Yitzhak Rabin, NY: HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 224-227; Rabin, p. 108-109). Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attache was flown to the Liberty.

Amid the confusion when Israel identified after the attack that the Ship was not Egyptian, they believed they accidentally attacked a Russian Ship which was a very big concern to them because they believed Russia would retaliate.

When the Ship was identified, the Israelis contacted the US Embassy.

Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate as they make clear on their web site. In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship (Washington Post, November 6, 1991). In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a "case of mistaken identity." Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.

Emotions ran high among the American crew of the USS Liberty and understandably so. It is some of the crew who claim the attack is deliberate but this is not supported by the Captain and the Officers of the USS Liberty.

Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. It also indicates that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack. The tapes do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack (Hirsh Goodman, "Messrs. Errors and No Facts," Jerusalem Report, November 21, 1991). Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version.

Yes the IAF made no attempt to identify the Ship. They were told that the Ship was Egyptian and they were going in for the kill.

A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel (Nathan Guttman, "Memos show Liberty attack was an error," Ha'aretz, July 9, 2003).

Israelis started searching for Egyptian Survivors.

None of Israel's accusers can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel's only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (five messages from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 25 miles - the last four said 100 miles - off the Egyptian coast arrived after the attack was over) is a more probable explanation.

And this is the crux of it!

Can anyone explain why on earth Israel will attack the country that pays its power and utility bills?

No I didn't think so.

Accidents caused by "friendly fire" are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by "friendly fire." In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the "no fly" zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In April 2002, an American F-16 dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns (Hirsh Goodman and Ze'ev Schiff, "The Attack on the Liberty," Atlantic Monthly, September 1984).

They are very common. Literally dozens of examples and near misses.

Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): "No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles."

of course they didn't because there was a gross Communication Error. All US Ships were ordered to stay a minimum 100 miles away from Israel and the Sinai. The Americans had know idea the USS Liberty was even there and told the Israelis they had no assets in the area.

Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: "It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional."

I would have great confidence in my Admiral as well. That is the system.

In 1987, McNamara repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the "Larry King Show" that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no "cover up" ("The Larry King Show" [radio], February 5, 1987).

Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987.

The matter was closed in 1987.

Now obviously, if you go to the crew's own website you get a different point of view and they are allowed to express it but there is no evidence to support those claims. many of the crew members remain bitter and disappointing as anyone could imagine but going on a wild goose chase is not the answer.

these claims have been used by the Israel detractors to push the spin and view that Israel deliberately attacked the USA in order to fracture the relationship.

No one has even made an adequate attempt to explain why Israel would attack a country that pays their power bill!

http://www.mitchellbard.com/articles/liberty.html

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

I can understand what you say but our thought processes are different.

As you say, for Israel to attack a US ship is inconceivable so you take the report as being accurate because to think otherwise would be just too incredible and tantamount to a ‘conspiracy theory’. So you go for the official version as being viable. But I never trust what I read without applying some analytical need for evidence to support the official story. (MH17 being another recent event where the ‘official’ explanation has holes in it big enough to fly a 777 through!!!)

My first question is “So why did they?” Of course nobody can answer that, at least not at our level of awareness, so I go through what we do know to see if there are any credible indications of why the Israeli’s made what the report says was a mistake:

• There was an Israeli recon flight about an hour before the attack.
• To send out aircraft to check it out, the Israeli’s had obviously picked up the vessel on RADAR?
• As the Liberty’s communications were being jammed the Israeli’s would most likely have known the frequencies used by US Spy ships and the US Navy in general?
• It has to be assumed that as the recon aircraft came close enough for the Liberty crew to see the pilots and wave to them, the pilots could also see that the crew were not at battle stations?
• We also have to assume that these were highly trained military pilots and would know the difference between a rowing boat and an aircraft carrier?
• Presumably they were there to positively identify the ship?
• So it is reasonable to assume they saw a grey military vessel, with US ident and flying a US flag?
• Maybe they even saw that the crew were all in US Navy fatigues and had white, and some black faces, not ‘Arabic’?
• They would have noted the speed and direction of Liberty …….. NW at 4-5 knots and that it was some 20 nautical miles from the coast?
• They would have seen that it was not a combat ship as there was no long range offensive weaponry, only 0.5 inch defensive machine guns?
• The ship made no hostile moves against the aircraft although the pilots would have been aware that they had been picked up on Liberty’s RADAR?
• They must also have been aware that the vessel was in International waters and posed no direct threat?

So these highly skilled military pilots flew back to base and reported that it was an Egyptian vessel and posed some sort of threat to Israeli forces! This is where the credibility of the official story falls apart, it does not make sense ...... at least to me! Taking these assumptions as perfectly rational and the evidence of the crew telling it as they saw it at the time, makes the official version somewhat lacking in credibility, in my opinion.

On the other hand why would the Israeli’s attack a US Naval vessel in International waters has no credible explanation as any evidence that would explain that event has long since gone through the shredder!

We can only make up our minds by looking for evidence/explanations in what we have access to. It is all down to degrees of probability and I think that overall someone is concealing the truth but we will never know, at least not until nobody’s ass can get kicked for their action or inaction!

No Arab,

I take the report issued from official channels such as the USN Investigation and that of the IDF. Both investigation teams had contradictory findings from the other but the general just based on all the evidence including the communications between the IAF aircraft and their command and control was that the Israelis identified the ship as Egyptian.

Your "eyewitness" accounts from understandably emotionally charged survivors just did not hold up to the scrutiny when it was up against recorded tapes by a USN EC-121 and the evidence submitted by the Usraelis.

This does not absolve Israel of its culpability of criminal negligence and that is all, and perhaps a breakdown in Command and Control as well as a breakdown in their Intelligence apparatus. In fact these tragedies generally occur as a result of a vast number of breakdowns in a fluid environment. You can't attribute blame against a particular pilot or pilots because the failures also occured on the USS Liberty and its Captain for not communicating their position to the Israelis. But let's go beyond the pilots and the Captain of USS Liberty. The failures go all the way up to the Pentagon and its liaison officers and the Israeli Ministry of Defence.

The crew could wave at an I comming aircraft but you could hear it from 30 miles away. A Mirage III would not get that close to see any flag or the ship's number and if it did, the ship would be a flash.

There are no degrees of probability. Only the findings and the recommendations.

Any Egyptian Ships including those in International waters posed a threat. Israeli could quite legitimately attack them and sink them but on that day they got a friendly. It could have been a Cypriot, Turkish or Greek Ship.

In Afghanistan, the Americans called in an Airstrike on Australian SAS. Australian Sygnals picked up the traffic and 2 SAS soldiers went to investigate because they were unaware of any unfriendlies. They looked over the valley and the target was in fact 17 SAS Landrovers. The American aircraft were at most only 2 minutes away if not seconds when some frantic SAS voices were cursing the Americans and the strike was aborted.

How do you think that would have gone down if they killed our SAS?

I just noticed I addressed you as Arab. That was unintentional and an error so please do not read into it.

The way I post these days is very much on the go from a Tablet or Smartphone and I do not proof read ANYTHING.

therefore, there are generally a lot of spelling mistakes and etc and auto text correction is just sometimes not working as well as it should and words get changed to something completely unintended.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

I didn't understand the reason for the comment anyway, so no offence taken!

When there is an 'incident' where people involved are warned to keep their mouths shut or else, information is with held or witness statements ignored, then in my book there is a cover-up! In this modern age where information can be obtained from a million sites in 0.01 of a second, it is very difficult to hide what will eventually come out ..... sometimes decades later. But at the time those seeking to hide involvement immediately start referring to anything that questions their version of events as a 'conspiracy theory'. To most, the idea that the official story could also be a 'conspiracy theory' is unthinkable. I am not specifically referring to Liberty but there WAS a cover up, but what the reason was is not evident.

You could add at least another twenty incidents to the list where there is evidence that information has been with held, that have happened in the last few years. I am sure I don't need to list them? If those in authority do not come clean and deliberately try to divert attention from such incidents ...... then they have 'something' to hide.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

I didn't understand the reason for the comment anyway, so no offence taken!

When there is an 'incident' where people involved are warned to keep their mouths shut or else, information is with held or witness statements ignored, then in my book there is a cover-up! In this modern age where information can be obtained from a million sites in 0.01 of a second, it is very difficult to hide what will eventually come out ..... sometimes decades later. But at the time those seeking to hide involvement immediately start referring to anything that questions their version of events as a 'conspiracy theory'. To most, the idea that the official story could also be a 'conspiracy theory' is unthinkable. I am not specifically referring to Liberty but there WAS a cover up, but what the reason was is not evident.

You could add at least another twenty incidents to the list where there is evidence that information has been with held, that have happened in the last few years. I am sure I don't need to list them? If those in authority do not come clean and deliberately try to divert attention from such incidents ...... then they have 'something' to hide.

my post was intended to start as "No RH", ...

Predictive and corrective text tripped me up.

It's a case of technology causing a friendly fire incident!

The military does not work that way, and you will be surprised as to the extent of the lack of cooperation between friendly countries and allies such as Israel and the USA or UK and USA or Australia and UK. Sometimes the right hand does not communicate with the left hand.

They try and integrate everything as much as possible right now, but the establishment does not warn people to keep their mouth shut and the USA would have been genuinely pissed at Israel for this incident and understandably so just like Australia would be really pissed if the Americans killed some of our SAS which was very nearly the case.

There would be outrage even though it was accidental. The Government has to juggle between heightened negative public perception and pressure and then there is the diplomatic channels between 2 allies. Real tough situation and there will always be repercussions even if it is a Government just making it appear as though they are talking tough to the Americans for this outrageous event that has killed our soldiers.

These incidents always have a negative perception and people feel that the Military will withhold information. The Military has its secrets of course but it is not the Governments intent to bullshit to the relatives and not complete a thorough investigation as to what caused this tragedy and what steps can be taken to avoid such an event from occurring again. These are responsibilities which are very seriously considered.

Well the facts are, the USA had no reason to withhold any information whatsoever. They were not responsible for the incident BUT they too contributed to the incident as per the findings of the investigation. Israel had no reason to attack the USA or Russia and at one point feared that the Ship may have been Russian. The truth is they were shitting bricks because that may have resulted in Russia entering Israel's War - which Israel was well and truly winning. Multiple things went wrong, from the pentagon, to the Israeli ministry of defence right down to the way the Torpedo Boats identified the Ship as Egyptian.

The Ship wasn't even suppose to be there.

[Lordo]

you are talking out of your arse again. listen to the survivors. first a israili spotter plane spotted them. then unmarked israily planes flew over them quite low. they had a huge american flag on their must. they waved at an israili pilot and they could see him smile at them. tis was a spy ship with almost no defence 100 miles off egypt in international waters. the unmarked israili warplanes did 5 sorties and attacked them with rockets, mortar and napalm. they then sent in torpedo boats. they could see the american flag and yet they fired 5 tropedos. the facts speak for themselves.

the question remains what is that the israilis had america that
1. they covered up the incident from the american public and the world
2. they gave aid to israil after 67 with all the weaponry and bombs they lost or used in the 67 war

it is relevant because unless you know what it is, you dont know if it is being used to this day. the question is what was it that israel was able to use to silence american military and politicians. as well as able to have their support in any un matters against the arabs.

[Paphitis]

you are talking out of your arse again. listen to the survivors. first a israili spotter plane spotted them. then unmarked israily planes flew over them quite low. they had a huge american flag on their must. they waved at an israili pilot and they could see him smile at them. tis was a spy ship with almost no defence 100 miles off egypt in international waters. the unmarked israili warplanes did 5 sorties and attacked them with rockets, mortar and napalm. they then sent in torpedo boats. they could see the american flag and yet they fired 5 tropedos. the facts speak for themselves.

the question remains what is that the israilis had america that
1. they covered up the incident from the american public and the world
2. they gave aid to israil after 67 with all the weaponry and bombs they lost or used in the 67 war

it is relevant because unless you know what it is, you dont know if it is being used to this day. the question is what was it that israel was able to use to silence american military and politicians. as well as able to have their support in any un matters against the arabs.

I am taking into consideration the testimonies of the Captain and other Officers as well as crew. None of them believe it was deliberate or that there is any evidence to support it. In fact, all of them think that it is ridiculous and impossible.

You are taking into consideration the allegations made by a few crew members, who are without doubt very bitter over the incident, and the nonsense spouted by the Anti Israel detractors who have latched on to such sentiments and are posing this tragedy as a great cover up.

too bad for you, the Military does not talk shit from the arse and that there are clearly defined processes which are beyond question.

Also, the Israelis are not into suicide. A spotter plane would not fly over an Egyptian Ship, and if anything would have been a bloody long way away. They would not be able to see any Flag or the designator of the Ship.

The US has always been selling Israel Weapons. And yes, they probably required replenishment after the 1967 War which I might add they did not start! Egypt and Syria started it and they got done over big time.

Israel is unable to silence the American Government or Opposition Politicians. There is no bloody way and the Government and opposition would have been outraged over the incident. To the Israelis benefit, they were very quick to contact the Americans once they discovered the mistake and offered the US every assistance in rescuing survivors and offering all medical assistance in Israeli Military Hospitals.

The US being a very proud and nationalistic country would not accept any rubbish from Israel if they believed it was deliberate, and would have even shut doen their lobbies, and even sent the Israeli Consulate on its merry way back to Israel. There would be a diplomatic fallout of unprecedented scale, and all arms deals would be suspended.

[Lordo]

you are a complete idiot. they were all told to shut up and that included the captain. this is why it took decades before it came out properly.

the question remains why. there must be a reason or two. where is that arshole israili swine shmuck to tell us, or has he gone shy on us all of a sudden.

it is also against american law to give any aid to any country that produces nuclear weapons. and yet israel is one such country that is aided against american laws. the question still remains, why.

now you are gona tell me israel does not have nuclear weapons. i dare you.