Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Paphitis;

I am sorry but you are wrong! The Iraeli’s DID know it was an American ship and even which American ship! It was identified as a US ship before the attack, it was clearly visually identified as such by its ID painted on the sides GTR-5 and it was flying a very large US flag. It was also in international waters which means it was not in the war zone.

The Israeli’s did not attempt ‘a positive identification’ so, beware if you go on a cruise from Limassol..... the Israeli’s shoot first and don’t bother too much about international conventions or Law. If you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time Israel won’t give sh*t!

There is a lot of hypothesis of why the Israeli’s deliberately attacked The USS Liberty the most credible being that it was interception of all the ground/air chatter as the Isreali’s illegally attacked the Golan Heights in contravention of ALL international agreements.

But .... for sure ..... it was no accidental encounter and the crew of USS Liberty were threatened by the US Government as to what would happen if any of them opened their mouths. It was another one of those things that were treated as a ‘conspiracy theory’ for years and it is only now that snippets of the truth are coming out.

Outline details of the incident from the Liberty Veterans Association:

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

A few more credible reports all from ‘If Americans knew’ ...... web site. A very good site for information about Israel since its inception right through to events today ............

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ussliberty.html

Oh for crying out loud!

I am aware of the conspiracy theories that they knew but the official investigations and the released tapes indicate that they did not know.

It was only after the attack when Israeli Control sent back an aircraft to visually identify the markings when the mentioned GTR5 and the controller indicated that it meant nothing to them and as far as they were concerned the Ship was Egyptian until the Navy started to pick up American survivors from the water.

Identification is sometimes from their intelligence of enemy ships and the A2g would be launched at max range to stay away from any Anti Aircraft.

[Lordo]

robin hood do you know why the amercians allowed israel to get away with it.
bafiduimmu you are a thick bastrd aint you. which tapes did you listen to that does not mention amercians. gavole you make it up as you go along.

[Paphitis]

robin hood do you know why the amercians allowed israel to get away with it.
bafiduimmu you are a thick bastrd aint you. which tapes did you listen to that does not mention amercians. gavole you make it up as you go along.

They didn't get away with it.

The Israelis had to pay compensation to every family and apologize for the fuck up.

These things can happen and war is very fluid and dynamic. The Americans came within seconds of wiping out an entire Australian SAS Regiment in Afghanistan.

There were intercepts by a USN EC-121 of Comms between Hatzor Tower and 2 Israeli Helicopters which identified an Egyptian Ship. They were the only US intercepts released to the NSA.

[Paphitis]

BTW RH,

The War Crimes allegations were tabled way before the completion of the investigation.

Nothing came of it because after the investigation, there was no case to answer with respect to War Crimes but Israel still had a lot of explaining to do.

If the Americans killed 200 odd of our elite SAS, we would be really pissed off. Yes the Americans will have a lot of explaining to do and there would be repercussions.

[Paphitis]

RH,

I have more questions I would like you to answer.

You mentioned that the Israeli Invasion of the Golan Heights was illegal. I presume the same illegality applies to the Invasion of the Sinai Peninsula which was returned in 1980.

Now who started the war?

Who actually thought they were going to win? And what were their intentions after such a victory?

Was the aggression against Israel also illegal? It was of course and Israel has a right to defend itself and it was unfortunate for the Egyptians and Syrians that they lost big time.

In that context, how illegal do you actually think Israel's desire to control some high ground was after they achieved the upper hand against the odds? I am sure it is illegal, but I am sorry, but Israel did nothing more than what most other countries would have done. Of course they were going to take the Golan Heights and of course they were going to send their army deep into Egypt and take the Peninsula.

The Peninsula was of course handed back to the rightful owner after a comprehensive peace settlement between Israel and Egypt in 1980.

Maybe if Assad had such a settlent with Israel then he too would get the Golan Heights back but at the moment Assad doesn't even control that border.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

I would willingly go through the history of all the events from before the Balfour Declaration through to the things that are happening today in the area and the legality of those historical events. The site I posted (‘IfAmericansKnew’) has credibility and covers the whole spectrum of events far better than I could possibly achieve. If Israel/Palestine/Gaza etc. is of interest to you I can recommend it, as a source of credible information.

What is ‘true’ and what is ‘not true’ can only be a question of levels of credibility and the answer to any questions is what the individual decides is credible. What I see as a plausible explanation you would no doubt see as a ‘conspiracy theory’, it all depends on what you want to believe. I will not change your mind as to the ‘why’s and wherefores’ of USS Liberty no more than others will change mine by referencing everything they either know little or nothing about, as a ‘conspiracy theory’, which is usually the retort when the person has no convincing contrary argument. (That is a general comment and not aimed at you personally)

BTW: I think you will find that Israel wanted the Golan not so much for its military strategic value but it is the major source of water for the whole region! A good reason for wanting it under Israel’s control, don’t you think?

[Paphitis]

RH,

I have absolutely no idea why on earth you would not accept the official USN investigation as truthful or plausible.

To me, it is not plausible that Israel will attack a USN Ship intentionally. This bounds on fantasy wishful thinking to say the least that Israel will attack the U.S. or anyone else for that matter other than those who have attacked Israel, let alone a very close ally.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

I have absolutely no idea why on earth you would not accept the official USN investigation as truthful or plausible.

I cannot believe that you have faith in everything that ‘official’ enquiries promote? When the official story clashes with the events as witnessed by those involved then there is room for doubt as to whether the ‘official’ story is a cover-up to protect greater interests. As I said, this is just a single incident but if you read the history behind the US/Israel relationship there are many such stories. Who DO you believe if you were not actually there to witness events? We can only assume that those who were there have a better idea of those events than some political/military selected board of enquiry acting on 'official' but often. not revealed information. Protecting National Security and all that crap!

To me, it is not plausible that Israel will attack a USN Ship intentionally. This bounds on fantasy wishful thinking to say the least that Israel will attack the U.S. or anyone else for that matter other than those who have attacked Israel, let alone a very close ally.

I agree it does sound unbelievable. Look at recent events in Gaza and even Syria. Israel does not respect International law and will act solely for their own interests. They have joined the US in believing that they are also an ‘exceptional and irreplaceable Nation’, with that attitude do you really expect such nations to tell ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’? I would suggest that to blindly accept the ‘official’ story as being accurate or even complete, is wishful thinking, not looking at all the available information and coming to an opinion based on credibility. I am sorry but I do not have the same faith in those that lead us, as you do.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

I have absolutely no idea why on earth you would not accept the official USN investigation as truthful or plausible.

I cannot believe that you have faith in everything that ‘official’ enquiries promote? When the official story clashes with the events as witnessed by those involved then there is room for doubt as to whether the ‘official’ story is a cover-up to protect greater interests. As I said, this is just a single incident but if you read the history behind the US/Israel relationship there are many such stories. Who DO you believe if you were not actually there to witness events? We can only assume that those who were there have a better idea of those events than some political/military selected board of enquiry acting on 'official' but often. not revealed information. Protecting National Security and all that crap!

To me, it is not plausible that Israel will attack a USN Ship intentionally. This bounds on fantasy wishful thinking to say the least that Israel will attack the U.S. or anyone else for that matter other than those who have attacked Israel, let alone a very close ally.

I agree it does sound unbelievable. Look at recent events in Gaza and even Syria. Israel does not respect International law and will act solely for their own interests. They have joined the US in believing that they are also an ‘exceptional and irreplaceable Nation’, with that attitude do you really expect such nations to tell ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’? I would suggest that to blindly accept the ‘official’ story as being accurate or even complete, is wishful thinking, not looking at all the available information and coming to an opinion based on credibility. I am sorry but I do not have the same faith in those that lead us, as you do.

Of course I have faith in the authorities and I am willing to elaborate why that is the case privately via PM if you want to but not in the public domain.

Our service personnel mean everything to us and no responsible Government will unnecessarily place them into harms way but their jobs are indeed dangerous.

The US and Israel is no different. I have no doubt about that.

I am sure the U.S. was pissed. How can it not be? But at the end of the day, the swiss cheese holes lined up that day which led to this tragedy. It is a regular occurrence unfortunately.

I am not interested in the opinions of a Stoker. Just because they were on the ship does not qualify them as expert but naturally, they would have opinions. You need to consider the eyewitness accounts of the Israeli Air Crews, the Commanding Officers on board the USS Liberty and the evidence at hand and the conclusions of the U.S. and Israeli investigations. Talking rubbish out of anger to lay undue blame because you lost your good mates is natural. It is expected as you would want someone to pay and naturally you would blame the Israelis if you lost your best mate and others you worked closely with. It's normal human behaviour. But these eye witness accounts are full of assumptions and do not consider the facts or anything reasonable. Too much hinges on the US flag and the ship's number. It is a big assumption to say that the IAF would have seen it. It is unlikely that they did or want to get close enough to be able to do so.

All countries act in their own interest. But I am really struggling to see the benefit of attacking a friendly country.

Israel is a good ally to have especially for Cyprus. If they did not respect international law, they would have invaded Cyprus long ago but they have no interest in anything other than their own security.

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

I can understand what you say but our thought processes are different.

As you say, for Israel to attack a US ship is inconceivable so you take the report as being accurate because to think otherwise would be just too incredible and tantamount to a ‘conspiracy theory’. So you go for the official version as being viable. But I never trust what I read without applying some analytical need for evidence to support the official story. (MH17 being another recent event where the ‘official’ explanation has holes in it big enough to fly a 777 through!!!)

My first question is “So why did they?” Of course nobody can answer that, at least not at our level of awareness, so I go through what we do know to see if there are any credible indications of why the Israeli’s made what the report says was a mistake:

• There was an Israeli recon flight about an hour before the attack.
• To send out aircraft to check it out, the Israeli’s had obviously picked up the vessel on RADAR?
• As the Liberty’s communications were being jammed the Israeli’s would most likely have known the frequencies used by US Spy ships and the US Navy in general?
• It has to be assumed that as the recon aircraft came close enough for the Liberty crew to see the pilots and wave to them, the pilots could also see that the crew were not at battle stations?
• We also have to assume that these were highly trained military pilots and would know the difference between a rowing boat and an aircraft carrier?
• Presumably they were there to positively identify the ship?
• So it is reasonable to assume they saw a grey military vessel, with US ident and flying a US flag?
• Maybe they even saw that the crew were all in US Navy fatigues and had white, and some black faces, not ‘Arabic’?
• They would have noted the speed and direction of Liberty …….. NW at 4-5 knots and that it was some 20 nautical miles from the coast?
• They would have seen that it was not a combat ship as there was no long range offensive weaponry, only 0.5 inch defensive machine guns?
• The ship made no hostile moves against the aircraft although the pilots would have been aware that they had been picked up on Liberty’s RADAR?
• They must also have been aware that the vessel was in International waters and posed no direct threat?

So these highly skilled military pilots flew back to base and reported that it was an Egyptian vessel and posed some sort of threat to Israeli forces! This is where the credibility of the official story falls apart, it does not make sense ...... at least to me! Taking these assumptions as perfectly rational and the evidence of the crew telling it as they saw it at the time, makes the official version somewhat lacking in credibility, in my opinion.

On the other hand why would the Israeli’s attack a US Naval vessel in International waters has no credible explanation as any evidence that would explain that event has long since gone through the shredder!

We can only make up our minds by looking for evidence/explanations in what we have access to. It is all down to degrees of probability and I think that overall someone is concealing the truth but we will never know, at least not until nobody’s ass can get kicked for their action or inaction!