Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

sotos, would you live in a Unitary State, where as Cypriots we fly this Flag highest, and where at another level of government, we can choose by where we reside, a Constituency, as an electorate sustaining its distinct identity?

...rather than a "Greek" vs "Turk", what if as Cypriots, we commit to defending each other as Cypriots, without distinction or discrimination? wouldn't this be possible, if along with a Republic, a Greek Constituency exists, like other Cypriot Constituencies, so that as Greeks, as Persons, Greeks (and people who live as Greeks) have the Liberty to express themselves as Greeks, as Greeks demonstrating their Goodwill as a Community, having self-representation, at another level of government, as a National Assembly, within their Territorial Jurisdiction, having an Agenda which may serve them first as a majority, but with respect and recognition of the minorities that live among them; if this were true for all Cypriot Constituencies, could you live with that?

Bicommunal, does not mean tearing the island in two, neither does Bizonal. the debate is flawed, there must be at least three bodies that can be identified, as sets within a Universe, to be "Bi" anything there must be a whole; having parts. frankly, it is not the Republic which should be defending "Greeks", as in Hellenism, Greeks on the other hand, should.

...sotos, hoping you will give my questions an answer.

[Sotos]

I am both Cypriot and British. My father was Cypriot and my mother is British. I am both Cypriot and British, legally, practically, in my own head and heart and in every way in fact. What I am not is Turkish. Not legally, not practically and not in my head or heart either. No one who knows me considers me Turkish, not my family not my friends and not my acquaintances. The ONLY people who consider me Turkish are those like yourself Sotos. Why is that ?

Because you support the views of the Turkish side in such a fanatical way even when they are so clearly wrong. Do you honestly argue that I shouldn't be able to tell what you are based on the arguments you made here?? There are such people, e.g. repulsewarrior ... I am honestly not sure what he is... but your position in this forum clearly shows your affiliation.

And as ever Sotos we get to the 'core' with you - you are a 'real' Cypriot and I am an invading thieving scumbag. You hatred and prejudice will always shine through with Sotos, you try and talk a good game of respect for human rights and minorities but in the end it always come down to the same with you, ethnic based hatred and prejudice.

Look if in 1959 the TC community was a numerical minority that dominated the economic, social and political life of Cyprus, and we sought to maintain that dominance after the end of British rule despite being a numerical minority, then an argument that we were just an extension and continuation of ottoman colonial rulers and not people for whom Cyprus was validly their homeland, might hold some water. However we were not such and your argument does not hold any water.

If you don't want to be seen as invading thieving scumbag then why don't you stop acting as one? There is no "prejudice" from my side since my conclusion is based on facts of the harm you have done to us for centuries and harm you continue doing today - hating those who harm you while they harm you, and who show no remorse is only natural. Stop committing crimes against and then we will stop hating you. Doesn't it make perfect sense? We are forgiving people... you are not the only minority in Cyprus...the Latins have done bad things to us in the past but we are all friends now. The same can happen with you... if you stop trying to find excuses to continue with the crimes.

I have always been totally clear on my personal views on what would constitute an acceptable settlement in Cyprus. I would accept no bi zonality and no requirement for separate consent of the communities with a single exception. That's is when GC 'vote' not as Cypriots but as Greeks, then we get to vote separately equally in our own shared homeland as Cypriots who are not Greek. That is it and even that is too much for you.

Should the same happen for the citizens of Turkey who are not Turkish? And what does it mean "GC 'vote' not as Cypriots but as Greeks"? What happens when TCs 'vote' not as Cypriots but as Turks? And who exactly will judge the vote of people and decide if they are voting as "Cypriots" or as "Greeks" or as "Turkish"?

[Sotos]

sotos, would you live in a Unitary State, where as Cypriots we fly this Flag highest, and where at another level of government, we can choose by where we reside, a Constituency, as an electorate sustaining its distinct identity?

...rather than a "Greek" vs "Turk", what if as Cypriots, we commit to defending each other as Cypriots, without distinction or discrimination? wouldn't this be possible, if along with a Republic, a Greek Constituency exists, like other Cypriot Constituencies, so that as Greeks, as Persons, Greeks (and people who live as Greeks) have the Liberty to express themselves as Greeks, as Greeks demonstrating their Goodwill as a Community, having self-representation, at another level of government, as a National Assembly, within their Territorial Jurisdiction, having an Agenda which may serve them first as a majority, but with respect and recognition of the minorities that live among them; if this were true for all Cypriot Constituencies, could you live with that?

Bicommunal, does not mean tearing the island in two, neither does Bizonal. the debate is flawed, there must be at least three bodies that can be identified, as sets within a Universe, to be "Bi" anything there must be a whole; having parts. frankly, it is not the Republic which should be defending "Greeks", as in Hellenism, Greeks on the other hand, should.

...sotos, hoping you will give my questions an answer.

Sorry ... I just don't understand your question very well You talk about unitary state but then you also want a "bizonal, bicommunal unitary state"? And it is the Cypriot flag the highest but then there are other flags just under it? I will tell you what I support: Cyprus free independent state with laws like all other EU states. Just one official flag. Everybody has the liberty to express themselves as whatever they want, Cypriot, Greek, Turkish, English, Russian whatever... and if you want another flag, fly it on your own home.. the Greek flag, the Turkish flag, the "trnc" flag, the swastika... whatever. All that about Bizonal, Bicommunal etc is bullshit in my opinion... we already have partition and there is no point in replacing one form of partition with another form.

[erolz66]

if you were TC Boulio or if the numbers were reversed do you think YOUR views would be the same as they are today ?

im not a tc you are so what would your views be if the tc were 82% of the population?

Boulio you ask me a question and I give you an honest answer and ask you to answer the same question you asked me and all you do is refuse to answer the question you asked me and ask me the same question again. Seriously is this your idea of debate because it certainly is not mine. To me it feels you have a sole objective of trying to 'trap' me and no interest in better mutual understanding through discussion.

Anyway to answer your question AGAIN, if TC were 80% of the population of Cyprus and they sought at then end of British colonial rule not an independent Cyprus that included GC in it but instead to replace British colonial rule with that of Turkish colonial rule I would like to think that I would oppose such and support independence and not annexation after British rule. If in the face of calls by a majority TC population for annexation of Cyprus to Turkey I would like to think I would accept or at least be able to hear an argument from GC that as far as we choose to define ourselves not as Cypriots that could include GC with us but instead as Turks who happen to live in Cyprus then GC have a right as people in their own homeland who are not Turks to an equal and separate right to self determination. I say 'like to think' because I am trying to be as honest as I can and I can not really know if this would be the case or not.

So now will you answer your own question that you have badgered me to answer ? If TC were 80% of the population and sought to replace British colonial rule with annexing Cyprus to Turkey without any consideration for the wishes of GC, would you argue that they had a democratic right to do so and that the 18% GC minority had no right in their own shared homeland to resist such being imposed on them against their communal will ?

[repulsewarrior]

...we are not that far apart sotos, a Republic, as you describe it, it would not surprise me if erolz would agree, or Lordos, even vp, if there existed a means to sustain what "Turkishness'' there is to the Cypriot ethnography. as it is, the debate has been separated to be the adversarial position of two mutually exclusive forces. this doe not make sense, and it never has.

Canada, is a Unitary State, every Canadian votes for a Canadian Government, to represent them, and to defend the Universal Principals on which a Canadian's Freedom is based. within Canada, there are Provinces, each quite distinct, with identities unlike the others, although some are English speaking, one is French, one is Inuit, and one is Bilingual, they all respect the rules that as Canadians, their electorate, choose to establish at the Federal level, (even in terms of their capacity at Bilingualism). it is not difficult to imagine that every single Citizen would willingly stand under a Cypriot flag, whether as Persons, they had a preference for another representational emblem, (and identity), or not. as Individuals they know the value of standing together for the Principals which make them all Human beings, as Individuals, these Principals come first.

...indeed a plain ordinary Unitary State, is the least expensive, as Good Government goes. it is not a luxury that Cyprus can necessarily afford so to speak, but the choice we must make as Cypriots (and being the overwhelming majority, as Greeks), to demonstrate to the rest of Mankind some gratitude for the Freedom we are in the process of creating for Cyprus, with new thinking, not that gets us (read: Cypriots) into, but that can take us (meaning the rest of Mankind) beyond the Modern Age.

...one other thing I would like to remind everyone. it is unrealistic to imagine that the demographics of Cyprus will remain the same, as time goes on. it is unwise to ignore this fact. as Cypriots, if our thinking is that the state is Greek, simply because most Cypriots are Greek, this is short-sighted.

[Get Real!]

...as Cypriots, if our thinking is that the state is Greek, simply because most Cypriots are Greek, this is short-sighted.

Do you actually go to bed at nights satisfied that you’re having meaningful constructive conversations here with others?



Get off the ganja dude… how many times have I gotta tell you?

For your sake just give it up.

[Sotos]

To me it feels you have a sole objective of trying to 'trap' me and no interest in better mutual understanding through discussion.

Isn't this what you are doing?

if TC were 80% of the population of Cyprus and they sought at then end of British colonial rule not an independent Cyprus that included GC in it but instead to replace British colonial rule with that of Turkish colonial rule I would like to think that I would oppose...

But in practice this is not what the Turks do when they are the majority and there are many examples of that. When you make an argument that certain things should apply only under very specific circumstances (which "by coincidence" happen to suit you) but they don't apply under very similar cases when the Turks are the majority and Greeks (and others) the minority, then I hope you understand that we can't take your argument as a honest view and that you have an interest in better mutual understanding through discussion. You are just trying to excuse your position.

[repulsewarrior]

...GR, I thought you were on vacation for a month. in any case, it's not the ganja, I get off on forcing the guy who checks my pee to pee in his own bottle first. I like to think that it is madness, the trauma I suffered from '74, that and my studies as a political-economists, where I read Das Capital three times, because it was easy.

[erolz66]

Because you support the views of the Turkish side in such a fanatical way even when they are so clearly wrong.

Care to show me even a single post where I support the views of the Turkish side in a fanatical way ? I express my views as a Turkish CYPRIOT - it is you and only you that seeks to define and classify me as simply Turkish and nothing else. Why is that Sotos ?

Do you honestly argue that I shouldn't be able to tell what you are based on the arguments you made here??

You can tell me what I am all you like and you do constantly. The facts however do not support such. The RoC defines and accepts me legally as a Cypriot. I define myself as a Cypriot. I live in Cyprus. I have never lived in Turkey. My father was born in Cyprus, he was not born in Turkey. His father and mother before him were born in Cyprus not in Turkey and so on. Yet to you I am simply a 'Turk'. Why is that Sotos ?

There are such people, e.g. repulsewarrior ... I am honestly not sure what he is... but your position in this forum clearly shows your affiliation.

If you honestly can not tell in regard to RW, then I can honestly say you are more stupid and less perceptive than I already hither too consider you to be.

If you don't want to be seen as invading thieving scumbag then why don't you stop acting as one?

So how exactly do I stop acting like an 'invader' ? What exactly does that mean Sotos? Does it mean stop opposing GC desires in Cyprus even when they are not Cypriot desires but actually Greek ones, that seek to give away Cyprus to another country ? Is that what you mean by 'stop acting as an invader' ? Or do you mean 'fuck off out of Cyprus and go and live in Turkey' ? Is that what you mean by 'stop acting like an invader' ?

There is no "prejudice" from my side since my conclusion is based on facts of the harm you have done to us for centuries and harm you continue doing today - hating those who harm you while they harm you, and who show no remorse is only natural.

You constantly define me as a Turk and not a Cypriot, you constantly claim only you are 'real Cypriots' and all I am is an invading thieving scumbag and you claim 'no prejudice' ? Are you really going to make out you have done no harm to us or that YOU show remorse for the harm you have done to us ?

Stop committing crimes against and then we will stop hating you.

Again what do you actually mean Sotos ? You mean give up the TRNC, force Turkey out of Cyprus and return to the post 65 RoC , ignoring and accepting your criminal unilateral removal of our rights under the 60's agreements, all so you can stop hating us ?

Should the same happen for the citizens of Turkey who are not Turkish?

How many times are we going to go round this loop with me giving the same reply and you ignoring it and just asking the same question again ? Once more can you not understand the difference between 'let's have a Cyprus state that includes you' and 'accept that we get to decide for you that there will be no Cyprus at all and you will be ruled in your own homeland not by Cypriots by foreigners 800km away'. For all Turkey's faults over its treatment of Kurds in Turkey - and they are many, it did not say to them in the name of a unitary Turkish people the land that you consider home will be given to and ruled by a foreign power based 800km away from Turkey and you will have no say in this decision and no right to any say.

And what does it mean "GC 'vote' not as Cypriots but as Greeks"? What happens when TCs 'vote' not as Cypriots but as Turks? And who exactly will judge the vote of people and decide if they are voting as "Cypriots" or as "Greeks" or as "Turkish"?

It means when they way you vote is determined not by 'personal choice' regardless of ethnic background but by what ethnic group you belong too. So you vote one way BECAUSE you are Greek Cypriot and another BECAUSE you are TC. Deciding if an issue is one defined by voting not as a Cypriot but as a GC or TC is piss easy. When 90% of GC vote for something and 90% of TC oppose something then by definition it is an issue where people are not voting as mere 'Cypriots' but as either Greeks or Turks. It is simple, but you want the right to exercise a 'tyranny of the majority' so that any time GC wants something that only benefits GC and not all Cypriots equally and harms only TC and not all Cypriots equally, you will always get what you want and TC will never get what they want. That is the kind of democratic Cyprus you want and believe is your right because you are the 'true' Cypriots and we are 'invading, thieving scumbags'.

[erolz66]

Isn't this what you are doing?

No

But in practice this is not what the Turks do when they are the majority and there are many examples of that.

For fucks sake Sotos - how many times ? I am NOT a Turk. You may just as well ask 'is this not what the French, German, Zimbabwean, Martian do when they are the majority for all the relevance it has.

When you make an argument that certain things should apply only under very specific circumstances (which "by coincidence" happen to suit you) but they don't apply under very similar cases when the Turks are the majority and Greeks (and others) the minority, then I hope you understand that we can't take your argument as a honest view and that you have an interest in better mutual understanding through discussion. You are just trying to excuse your position.

For fucks sake. How many times ? Can you not understand the difference between 'we will all be part of single people that will rule ourselves, you included' and 'we will force you to be part of a foreign nation (that actively consider you foreign) based 800km away against your will and with no consideration for your desires in your own homeland what so ever' - That you can even suggest that these two cases are 'very similar' just shows the true depth and strength of your denial.