Sotos wrote: If the British after WWII made a referendum in Cyprus on how we want Colonialism to end NO impartial observer would see anything strange if an island with 80% Greek population would vote to be part of Greece or choose to have independence with a NORMAL kind of democracy as it exists in every other democratic country (with the exceptions proving the rule). The most appropriate democracy is the normal democracy.
If what you had sought was just independence, equally for all Cypriots then the situation would have been 'normal' and 'normal' systems would have sufficed. What made things atypical was you sought union with Greece, as an expression of you right to self determination as a people different and separate from us. That is what made the situation atypical.
Sotos wrote:What the white Europeans did in north America is what the Turks did to Anatolia. But what happened in that era is considered done and Majority Rule applies regardless if that majority is made of natives or colonialists from that era. If you made the argument that this is unfair IN GENERAL for ALL minorities then at least you would be consistent and maybe I would agree with you. But when you find excuses on why such rights should apply to your minority but not to ALL minorities .... even minorities made of natives who have greatly suffered... then do you think that an impartial observer would take your argument seriously?
You accept that European Americans can today validly consider America their homeland , no different from those who were there before them do. You do not accept that we can validly consider Cyprus our homeland no different from you who were there before us. I simply make the argument that it is you who is inconsistent in this regard.
Sotos wrote:What I don't accept is your claim that you have this atypical thing as a natural right and that if we don't accept it this gives you the right to act in all kinds of nasty ways.
And I have repeatedly and explicitly said I have never claimed your refusal gave or gives us any right to act in 'nasty ways'.
Sotos wrote:Like I said above if this would be a natural right for you it would be for all minorities!
I do believe any numerical minority (over a certain absolute size) in a place that is ending colonial rule as an expression of its right to self determination, at a time after such rights came into existence, has a right to resist the imposition of what is to them is foreign rule in their own shared homeland by a numerical majority that defines itself as a separate and different people from them.
Sotos wrote: But so far you are talking vaguely. Tell me how in PRACTICE such a law would give you the power to use it for "the good" without at the same time effectively giving you a veto power on anything that TCs want to veto?
I am not asking for something that would give my community a veto power on anything. I am asking for a right to resist the imposition of things on my community ONLY when how we vote is defined not by individual choice regardless of ethnic community we come from but by and because of what ethnic community we come from. In any sane and rational future I am asking for a right that should never be needed because we should as Cypriots never want or need to seek something that is defined BY which ethnic group we are part of but I ask and indeed require it, it in case we do, given that this is exactly what we did do historically. If you say to me 'ok I understand why such a right is necessary to you but I have fears and concerns over its practical implementation , fears that this right if accepted by us and given to you will be exploited for purposes other than its intended purpose' then I say to you 'ok I understand your concerns in this regard, so lets talk, lets negotiate , lets compromise and find a way forward that is 'win win' and not 'win - loose', lets look at some form of agreed and if necessary external impartial arbitration that can ensure the right is not abused and that deadlocks can be broken. However when you say to me "I do not accept you have this right at all and can never have it in any system in Cyprus that I would consider just or fair" , then what is the point in such discussions ?
Sotos wrote:The main debate here is about natural rights... not parameters of a solution and a compromise. I told you already we can COMPROMISE and that as a result of our compromise you can have several legal rights including what you ask for here... so "get all and give nothing" couldn't be further from the truth! With our compromise we would get a lot LESS than most other majorities while your minority would get a lot MORE than other minorities. But what you want from us here is not a compromise... you want some kind of moral victory ... trying to prove that we are the "bad guys" who caused the problem because we denied your "natural right" when the truth is the opposite.
Indeed the main debate here for me is about 'natural rights' and not parameters of a solution per se. However the reason why it is so important to me that you accept that the one single, limited, right I want for my community in our shared homeland is accepted as a right that is just and fair and necessary is NOT because I seek to prove you are the 'bad guys' (we were ALL the 'bad guys') it is because we HAVE BEEN HERE BEFORE. If you say to me you will grant me such a limited right but not because such is fair and just and required by our unique situation and history but because you have 'no other choice' then I say NO. I say no because history has shown that such a thing granted as a right, when you really believe it is no such thing and believe it is not just, not fair can only lead to us repeating the mistakes we made in the past. I am focused here on trying to find a better future by understanding where we (all of us) went wrong before and not repeating those SAME mistakes again. You are the one here in this thread obsessed with blame or denial of blame for the past. If you want to characterise this as being ' we differed in the past about what our respective rights as communities in a shared homeland should have been and now we seek to resolve that core difference so we can avoid the mistakes we (ALL Cypriots) made in past as we look to move into the future' as a way of removing the 'blame' element, then go ahead - I will not argue with you about such in this thread. If however all you want to do is refuse to even try and understand what it is I am ACTUALLY saying and WHY, by accusing me off only having a motivation of wanting to blame your side , so you can more easily ignore and dismiss what I am actually saying and why, well then what can I do about that ?
Now, talking about the FUTURE... you need to give us the details about how exactly what you want would work. If it is something that doesn't violate democratic principles and it is limited and protected against abuse then I have no reason not to accept it as just and fair... but not just for you. The Greek minority in Turkey and all minorities should also have something that is just and fair and which in any case would be used ONLY if the majority tries to do something wrong.
