Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

IT SHOULD NEVER be about ethnicity in voting but ideology thats why your belgium example you posted yesterday is as you stated about my opinion on belgium bullacks.

It SHOULD never have been about ethnicity but in Cyprus with the attempt to impose Enosis on all Cypriots and all of Cyprus it WAS about ethnicity and ONLY about such. That is the problem.

You opinion that Belgium was on the verge of 'civil war' was what I described as clearly bollocks, because such an assertion IS CLEARLY bollocks.

[Kikapu]

Erolz,

To my shocking surprise reading through this thread, I get the feeling your interpretation of Democracy is flawed in a major way and that it is not generally how Democratic countries apply democracy, as in individuals and communities needing to have an effective say in what happens in their country, either personally or as a community or else they refuse to accept the Democratic principles just because the votes went against their wishes.

Generally, Democracy is practiced through individuals having an effective say by them voting for a political party that the individuals or a communities who has an affiliation with and that they personally associate with, therefore, any majority or minority political parties will include wide range of individuals and members of communities in those political parties irrespective of what their ethnicities are. That's how individuals and community members best have an effective say in what happens in their own country by siding with the political party they best associate with at that particular time, as this can change over time, just like the shifting Sand Dunes in the Desert, depending on how hard the political winds blow and from which political direction.

You cannot have a country run by anyone and everyone from individuals to communities to unions in essence each having a VETO power to be able to have an effective say in their own country if they don't like the results of those who voted for the majority party. It is the political parties that win elections and not communities, individuals or unions. Why should Cyprus be any different, or do you think there will only be just two political parties in Cyprus, one for the GCs and one for the TCs, where the GC majority political party will be able to dominate the minority TC party every time. Really, is that what you think it will happen?

For the losing parties and all their members as individuals, communities and unions have the laws of the land written in the constitution that will protect their rights against the extreme wishes of the majority. Democratic countries are not run like how the so called "Democracy" is ran in Turkey where the minority political parties, individuals, communities and unions are persecuted one way or the other without security from the laws of the land since they can be very easily exploited by "Godfather” figure like Erdogans' majority party, majority being very conservative religious party. I can see where your fears come from by seeing what goes on in Turkey, but that is not how Democracies are applied in the EU, and Cyprus is and will be a EU country with all it's Democratic Principles protected and safeguarded for ALL Cypriot citizens.

the funny or ironic thing kikapu is that a tc community party would be the third largest in a unitary cyprus thus the kingmaker of every govt.now thats real power in a democratic way.

Yes of course, if there were political parties based ONLY on ethnicity, but in reality, political parties are NOT based on ethnicities but on ideology instead. This is what Erolz is missing regarding how individuals and communities have a say so in their own country.

[boulio]

IT SHOULD NEVER be about ethnicity in voting but ideology thats why your belgium example you posted yesterday is as you stated about my opinion on belgium bullacks.

It SHOULD never have been about ethnicity but in Cyprus with the attempt to impose Enosis on all Cypriots and all of Cyprus it WAS about ethnicity and ONLY about such. That is the problem.

You opinion that Belgium was on the verge of 'civil war' was what I described as clearly bollocks, because such an assertion IS CLEARLY bollocks.

you guys keep talking about something 60 years ago jesus get over it.i never said belgium is on the verge i said if brussels wasent the center of the eu it could be.

[erolz66]

the funny or ironic thing kikapu is that a tc community party would be the third largest in a unitary cyprus thus the kingmaker of every govt.now thats real power in a democratic way.

No Boulio the REALLY ironic thing is that you do not seem to even realise that without the resistance to the imposition of enosis on all Cypriots by the TC community, a resistance you argue we never had any right topo and can never have any right to in any future unified Cypriot state, there would be NO Cypriot state at all for either of our communities to be 'kingmaker' in. Now that IS ironic.

[boulio]

again talking about 50 year old events to justify todays partition.when will you stop?

[erolz66]

you guys keep talking about something 60 years ago jesus get over it.

Because understanding what happened 60 years ago is necessary to understanding both how and why we came to be in the mess we are in today and how we can get out of it , short of velvet partition. However if you do feel then need to suggest people 'get over it' perhaps you could talk to Sotos when he justifies what happened 60 years ago as a result of what the Ottomans did in Cyprus 400 years ago ?

i never said belgium is on the verge i said if brussels wasent the center of the eu it could be.

Well if you mean could, in the sense that the world could end tomorrow, or GR could become a member of golden dawn tomorrow, then yes it could happen as could anything happen. If however you mean could in the sense that there is any reasonable realistic chance at all that it WOULD happen, then the assertion is as I say clearly bollocks.

[repulsewarrior]

re: "NO Cypriot" State.

...indeed it is the ultimate demonstration of a minority power.

...Gay Pride, comes to mind, representing a small, (very) small minority, but highly organised.

[boulio]

you guys keep talking about something 60 years ago jesus get over it.

Because understanding what happened 60 years ago is necessary to understanding both how and why we came to be in the mess we are in today and how we can get out of it , short of velvet partition. However if you do feel then need to suggest people 'get over it' perhaps you could talk to Sotos when he justifies what happened 60 years ago as a result of what the Ottomans did in Cyprus 400 years ago ?

i never said belgium is on the verge i said if brussels wasent the center of the eu it could be.

Well if you mean could, in the sense that the world could end tomorrow, or GR could become a member of golden dawn tomorrow, then yes it could happen as could anything happen. If however you mean could in the sense that there is any reasonable realistic chance at all that it WOULD happen, then the assertion is as I say clearly bollocks.

no i think the tc position is just to bring up enosis and the coup just to justify there demands thats all.concerning belgium i wrote what i wrote if you comprehended another way im sorry for that.

[erolz66]

again talking about 50 year old events to justify todays partition.when will you stop?

TALK to SOTOS if talking about 'old' events to justify recent events offends you.

I am trying my best to make clear how the idea that there can be no other means to democracy other than one that would allow the GC community, acting as an ethnic community and not individuals regardless of ethnicity, to have the RIGHT to impose anything on the TC community without any restriction at all and any need to consider the TC communities wishes in its own shared homeland played a massive part in getting us to the mess we are in TODAY and how the continuance of this idea TODAY undermines our chance to find a settlement for the FUTURE other than partition. My arguments are all about TODAY and the FUTURE. Yes they include the past because TODAY has been shaped and defined by that past and our FUTURE is limited by the same ideas Sotos espouses TODAY that played such a large part in getting us into this state in the past.

If you do not like it then go post in some other thread ?

[erolz66]

no i think the tc position is just to bring up enosis and the coup just to justify there demands thats all.

So you are saying the pursuit on enosis rather than independence by GC and their willingness to use illegal ethnic violence to achieve it played no part in getting us to the state we are in today ? You are saying that the Makarios illegally and unilaterally removing the TC communities rights under the 60's agreements played no part in getting us to the state we are in today ? Well that's very convenient but unfortunately not true

concerning belgium i wrote what i wrote if you comprehended another way im sorry for that.

I know what you wrote and I believe I comprehend WHY you wrote it. You wrote it to try and create an impression that I was suggesting an alternative model of democracy in an EU state that would NOT grant your community, acting purely AS a community, a right to impose anything it wanted on mine community with no restriction, that actually 'could' lead to civil war in that country. The suggestion was bollocks when you first wrote it and its still bollocks now.