Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Excellent posts Erol, but unfortunately Sotos is so narrow minded that he can never comprehend what you are saying.

[erolz66]

....but unfortunately Sotos is so narrow minded that he can never comprehend what you are saying.

Maybe if he heard similar concepts from a 'respected Greek' he might be more able to comprehend them ? I think it is a long shot but worth a try I suppose.

Such polities we, of course, deny to be polities, just as we deny that laws are true laws unless they are enacted in the interest of the common weal of the whole State. But where the laws are enacted in the interest of a section, we call them feudalities rather than polities; and the “justice” they ascribe to such laws is, we say, an empty name.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... page%3D715

Popular sovereignty may be nothing more than the authority of the ruling majority, which make political decisions on the basis of their private pleasure and interest, or their prejudice and ignorance. If laws are framed in such a partisan politics, Plato holds, they have no authority to be obeyed. The laws should only be made for the common good, and this legislative function belongs to reason.

For example, in Laws Plato clearly supports the notion that when the laws are not in the interest of the whole community, but only benefical to a segment of it, as for example in a tyranny, oligarchy or extreme democracy, they are not true laws.

[boulio]

what you just quoted erol can be applyied to the tc positions as well.

[Kikapu]

Erolz,

To my shocking surprise reading through this thread, I get the feeling your interpretation of Democracy is flawed in a major way and that it is not generally how Democratic countries apply democracy, as in individuals and communities needing to have an effective say in what happens in their country, either personally or as a community or else they refuse to accept the Democratic principles just because the votes went against their wishes.

Generally, Democracy is practiced through individuals having an effective say by them voting for a political party that the individuals or a communities who has an affiliation with and that they personally associate with, therefore, any majority or minority political parties will include wide range of individuals and members of communities in those political parties irrespective of what their ethnicities are. That's how individuals and community members best have an effective say in what happens in their own country by siding with the political party they best associate with at that particular time, as this can change over time, just like the shifting Sand Dunes in the Desert, depending on how hard the political winds blow and from which political direction.

You cannot have a country run by anyone and everyone from individuals to communities to unions in essence each having a VETO power to be able to have an effective say in their own country if they don't like the results of those who voted for the majority party. It is the political parties that win elections and not communities, individuals or unions. Why should Cyprus be any different, or do you think there will only be just two political parties in Cyprus, one for the GCs and one for the TCs, where the GC majority political party will be able to dominate the minority TC party every time. Really, is that what you think it will happen?

For the losing parties and all their members as individuals, communities and unions have the laws of the land written in the constitution that will protect their rights against the extreme wishes of the majority. Democratic countries are not run like how the so called "Democracy" is ran in Turkey where the minority political parties, individuals, communities and unions are persecuted one way or the other without security from the laws of the land since they can be very easily exploited by "Godfather” figure like Erdogans' majority party, majority being very conservative religious party. I can see where your fears come from by seeing what goes on in Turkey, but that is not how Democracies are applied in the EU, and Cyprus is and will be a EU country with all it's Democratic Principles protected and safeguarded for ALL Cypriot citizens.

[repulsewarrior]

(Democracy)

... it can be used to identify what is common, in that, at least there must exist equality. it can be used to define us, as Persons, as well as, Individuals, Bicommunally speaking, ((not "Turk" vs "State"), (not "Greek" is the State)), just Cypriot, above all, whether Greek, Turkish...,etc. within the State we identify ourselves as Individuals, but, where within it, we identify with Nations. I see no reason in that regard to expect no less than equality among Nations, in Cyprus, if as an Individual we stand united to defend ourselves not as Nations, but as Human Beings.

...two levels of Government are implied, what is lacking, since there is a Republic, is a Greek Constituency, so that other Cypriot Constituencies can profit from the Liberty a representation of Greeks as Greeks, being the overwhelming population, has for themselves.

[erolz66]

what you just quoted erol can be applyied to the tc positions as well.

I am not the one arguing here that there can only be one 'just' solution, being one that would grant their community the right to always have its way and wishes and the other community to never have theirs whenever their wishes differed as a community. I am not the one arguing that that such is the only possible solution that is compatible with democracy, when clearly that is not the case. I am not the one arguing that we can only have 'normal' democracy in Cyprus, where normal is synonymous with my community always get is way without any restriction or any requirement to consider the wishes of the other should they differ as communities, when the situation in Cyprus is itself far from 'normal'.

[boulio]

IT SHOULD NEVER be about ethnicity in voting but ideology thats why your belgium example you posted yesterday is as you stated about my opinion on belgium bullacks.

[boulio]

Erolz,

To my shocking surprise reading through this thread, I get the feeling your interpretation of Democracy is flawed in a major way and that it is not generally how Democratic countries apply democracy, as in individuals and communities needing to have an effective say in what happens in their country, either personally or as a community or else they refuse to accept the Democratic principles just because the votes went against their wishes.

Generally, Democracy is practiced through individuals having an effective say by them voting for a political party that the individuals or a communities who has an affiliation with and that they personally associate with, therefore, any majority or minority political parties will include wide range of individuals and members of communities in those political parties irrespective of what their ethnicities are. That's how individuals and community members best have an effective say in what happens in their own country by siding with the political party they best associate with at that particular time, as this can change over time, just like the shifting Sand Dunes in the Desert, depending on how hard the political winds blow and from which political direction.

You cannot have a country run by anyone and everyone from individuals to communities to unions in essence each having a VETO power to be able to have an effective say in their own country if they don't like the results of those who voted for the majority party. It is the political parties that win elections and not communities, individuals or unions. Why should Cyprus be any different, or do you think there will only be just two political parties in Cyprus, one for the GCs and one for the TCs, where the GC majority political party will be able to dominate the minority TC party every time. Really, is that what you think it will happen?

For the losing parties and all their members as individuals, communities and unions have the laws of the land written in the constitution that will protect their rights against the extreme wishes of the majority. Democratic countries are not run like how the so called "Democracy" is ran in Turkey where the minority political parties, individuals, communities and unions are persecuted one way or the other without security from the laws of the land since they can be very easily exploited by "Godfather” figure like Erdogans' majority party, majority being very conservative religious party. I can see where your fears come from by seeing what goes on in Turkey, but that is not how Democracies are applied in the EU, and Cyprus is and will be a EU country with all it's Democratic Principles protected and safeguarded for ALL Cypriot citizens.

the funny or ironic thing kikapu is that a tc community party would be the third largest in a unitary cyprus thus the kingmaker of every govt.now thats real power in a democratic way.

[repulsewarrior]

indeed, the minority, if you will, almost always holds real power, holding the balance, in a democratic vote.

[erolz66]

Generally, Democracy is practiced through individuals having an effective say by them voting for a political party that the individuals or a communities who has an affiliation with and that they personally associate with, therefore, any majority or minority political parties will include wide range of individuals and members of communities in those political parties irrespective of what their ethnicities are. That's how individuals and community members best have an effective say in what happens in their own country by siding with the political party they best associate with at that particular time, as this can change over time, just like the shifting Sand Dunes in the Desert, depending on how hard the political winds blow and from which political direction.

And that is exactly the kind of 'normality' we did NOT have in Cyprus, thus requiring an atypical means to achieve democracy. It is exactly because we did not have political partiers with a wide range of individual members regardless of their ethnicities, with individuals siding with one party or another , shifting with the sand but actually had one community trying to impose something (enosis) BECAUSE of what ethnicity they were and with out having to pay any regard to those who opposed it BECAUSE of their ethnicity, that we need an atypical system that is still compatible with democracy, as they have in Belgium that also had a similar history of political desires not being the result of individual choice regardless of ethnic community but defined BY the unchanging characteristic OF ethnicity.

You cannot have a country run by anyone and everyone from individuals to communities to unions in essence each having a VETO power to be able to have an effective say in their own country if they don't like the results of those who voted for the majority party. It is the political parties that win elections and not communities, individuals or unions.

I have never suggested such. You can have a country that is democratic and that does NOT allow an ethnic based numerical majority to impose its will AS an ethnic grouping on the smaller ethnic communities without any regard for those numerically smaller communities wishes. Belgium is ONE example of such a country, there are others I could give as well. Sotos' argument is that ANY form of democracy in Cyprus that does not give his numerically larger community a RIGHT to impose its ethnic based communal will (an attribute that dose NOT change with the sands for individuals of that community) on our numerically smaller one without ANY restriction or ANY requirement to consider our views , is unacceptable because it is not 'normal'. In return I have pointed out that such a view is a major factor in getting us into the mess we are in today and a major factor in undermining our chances of finding a settlement.

Why should Cyprus be any different, or do you think there will only be just two political parties in Cyprus, one for the GCs and one for the TCs, where the GC majority political party will be able to dominate the minority TC party every time. Really, is that what you think it will happen?

I have made it ABSOLUTELY clear that the ONLY time I think we need limits on the majority is when GC chose act on block as an ethnic community BECAUSE of their different ethnicity to us. I have even defined a specific means an number as to how we determine if that is the case. I previously pulled '10%' out of the air but if you think that is too high, ok lets say 5%. No one would be happier if we agreed a solution with such limits on the GC community only when acting as such and individuals because they are part of such and not because of some personal choice regardless of their ethnicity, and we ended up never needing such things because GC as a community never sought to impose something that was only in their benefit and only to our detriment, no one would be happier than me. But to tell me that any such limitation on the GC community can never be granted because it is not 'normal' - well then I say such a view a major part in what has got us into the mess we are in today and remains a major part in undermining our getting out of via negotiation for anything other than a 'velvet partition'.

For the losing parties and all their members as individuals, communities and unions have the laws of the land written in the constitution that will protect their rights against the extreme wishes of the majority. Democratic countries are not run like how the so called "Democracy" is ran in Turkey where the minority political parties, individuals, communities and unions are persecuted one way or the other without security from the laws of the land since they can be very easily exploited by "Godfather” figure like Erdogans' majority party, majority being very conservative religious party. I can see where your fears come from by seeing what goes on in Turkey,

Are you REALLY trying to tell me that actually the imposition of enosis on my community against its will in its own shared homeland could have been blocked (or could be blocked) by us using laws against discrimination (as an ethnic minority) to stop it ? Or that telling me my homeland will not be a country in its own right, my nationality will not be Cypriot, that I will not be ruled by Cypriots, but it will be part of Greece, I will be made a Greek citizen and I will be ruled not by other Cypriots but from Athens by Greeks and I have NO ay at ALL in these decision, is NOT the embodiment of an 'extreme wish of the majority' ? Can you REALLY think of a 'Godfather' figure more than Makarios, willing to ignore the law of the land arbitrarily any time it did not suit him ?

but that is not how Democracies are applied in the EU, and Cyprus is and will be a EU country with all it's Democratic Principles protected and safeguarded for ALL Cypriot citizens.

It IS how democracy is applied in other atypical EU states that have a similar history of people not voting as individuals regardless of their ethnicity , but rather en mass as ethnic communities BECAUSE of their ethnicity. Belgium is the classic example of this. Belgium does NOT grant the numerically larger community a right to impose a purely ethnic based communal will on the smaller ethnic communities and it is a democratic EU state. Sotos tells me however that there can be no other form of democracy in Cyprus except one that would allow his community, any time it might chose to do so, the RIGHT to impose its will, not as a group of individuals regardless of ethnic community, but AS and ethnic community because of its different ethnic background, ANYTHING on my community up to an including the handing over of Cyprus to an external state that is to my community not just foreign but foreign with a historic enmity for my ethnic background and my community can have NO effective say in such a decision at all.