Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

What about joining the European "Christian" EU? What if EU integration progresses to that of a state? Do you have a "right" to stop Cyprus?

Look if Cyprus joining the EU is a 'Cypriot' issue, where by some people support it and some oppose it regardless of their ethnic back ground and the effect and meaning such a decision has on them is the same regardless of their ethnic background, then a simple majority vote of all Cypriots is a perfectly acceptable means of making such a decision to me. The problems ONLY start when you chose to act not in the general interest of Cyprus and all Cypriots regardless of ethnic background but purely in the interests of yourselves as Greeks and try an impose on me things that have a totally different meaning and effect to me as a TC as they do to you as a GC and insist in such circumstances I and my community can and should have no effective say in such purely ethnic background motivated decisions. That is when the problems start Sotos and as far as you continue to insist today this is the case the issue continues today.

[Sotos]

What about joining the European "Christian" EU? What if EU integration progresses to that of a state? Do you have a "right" to stop Cyprus?

Look if Cyprus joining the EU is a 'Cypriot' issue, where by some people support it and some oppose it regardless of their ethnic back ground and the effect and meaning such a decision has on them is the same regardless of their ethnic background, then a simple majority vote of all Cypriots is a perfectly acceptable means of making such a decision to me. The problems ONLY start when you chose to act not in the general interest of Cyprus and all Cypriots regardless of ethnic background but purely in the interests of yourselves as Greeks and try an impose on me things that have a totally different meaning and effect to me as a TC as they do to you as a GC and insist in such circumstances I and my community can and should have no effective say in such purely ethnic background motivated decisions. That is when the problems start Sotos and as far as you continue to insist today this is the case the issue continues today.

But couldn't you say the same for EU? If the majority of GCs want EU (or integration into a European state) you could say that we think as Christians and not as Cypriots and because TCs are Muslim they should have the right to oppose this. and you could say that Brussels is 1000s of miles away etc etc.

[Nikitas]

Joining a an entity which is neither Greece nor Turkey was a sticky one. Tansu Ciller had said on live TV that the only acceptable way into the EU would be for Greece, Turkey and Cyprus to join together. Which means jioning at the pace of the slowest one in the group, and also assuming that the elephant in the room, the EU itself, would agree to such a deal. In the end the EU decided the order of acceptance and the rest had to keep their opinions to themselves.

This is where the veto power hs to be used wisely and with the interests of the whole and not just one part in mind. Do we have such wise men in Cyprus? Has any leader ever acted on behalf of the whole island, as opposed to his "community". This is where the presidential joint ticket proposal and the weighted TC vote for the president starts to make sense.

[erolz66]

But couldn't you say the same for EU? If the majority of GCs want EU (or integration into a European state) you could say that we think as Christians and not as Cypriots and because TCs are Muslim they should have the right to oppose this. and you could say that Brussels is 1000s of miles away etc etc.

It COULD be such an issue if the only ones who supported joining the EU were GC and all TC opposed it but in reality I do not think this WOULD ever have been the case. I think some Cypriots of either ethnic back ground would have supported joining and some of either background would not or to say the same thing another way I do not think the effects of joining (or not joining) would have meant massively different things to GC as they would to TC based on if they were GC or TC.

[erolz66]

Do we have such wise men in Cyprus? Has any leader ever acted on behalf of the whole island, as opposed to his "community".

No we do not, we have never had so far our Cypriot 'Ghandi' or 'Mandela' but I am not sure if our lack of one is due their absence as much as it is due to our lack of ordinary Cypriots to want such a leader ? If we had such in the 50's we almost certainly would have killed them.

[Viewpoint]

Sotos your ignorance knows no bounds, if you cannot see the vast difference between joining the EU and becoming Greece then you know absolutely nothing, the majority of TCs would support joining the EU but 100% would oppose becoming a Greek Turk.

[Sotos]

OK ... so Athens is too far but Brussels is not. Greek rule is a foreign rule, European rule is not. And if a minority of people who don't want a union with others outside of Cyprus happen to be TCs then they have the right to block such union, but if any other minority (of equal size) opposes a union then that minority does not have the right to block such union?

[repulsewarrior]

...again, I suggest that the words, "Greek", and "Turkish", need to be depoliticised, if we are truly discussing a Bicommunal way of life, correctly, we can be identifying ourselves as Persons, and Individuals. "Greeks", and "Turks", (as well as the other Cypriot Constituencies) reflect one side of a balance ("us" as Persons), while on the other is the Universal Principals of equals as Human beings. it is a balance between Freedom, and our Individual Rights without distinction or discrimination, and the Liberty we seek as Distinct Identities, our "Government" is not a balance between "Greek" rights and "Turkish" rights.

...sotos, I ask again, can you live in a Country where there is one man, one vote? and if that Country is Cyprus, would you appreciate the possibility, beyond that, of Greeks, (at another level of government) representing themselves as Greeks, having as an electorate a Territorial Jurisdiction, and the right as a National Assembly to collect taxes, a means as a majority to effect their daily lives, (and in that sense equal to other Cypriot Constituencies) could you live with that?

[erolz66]

OK ... so Athens is too far but Brussels is not. Greek rule is a foreign rule, European rule is not. And if a minority of people who don't want a union with others outside of Cyprus happen to be TCs then they have the right to block such union, but if any other minority (of equal size) opposes a union then that minority does not have the right to block such union?

You are just be driven into ever more ridiculous positions by your refusal to accept the obvious Sotos. Are you REALLY trying to argue that Cyprus joining the EU represents the same thing as making Cyprus a province of Greece, to any type of Cypriot, let alone to TC specifically ? Are you REALLY suggesting this ?

[Sotos]

OK ... so Athens is too far but Brussels is not. Greek rule is a foreign rule, European rule is not. And if a minority of people who don't want a union with others outside of Cyprus happen to be TCs then they have the right to block such union, but if any other minority (of equal size) opposes a union then that minority does not have the right to block such union?

You are just be driven into ever more ridiculous positions by your refusal to accept the obvious Sotos. Are you REALLY trying to argue that Cyprus joining the EU represents the same thing as making Cyprus a province of Greece, to any type of Cypriot, let alone to TC specifically ? Are you REALLY suggesting this ?

What I asked was "What if EU integration progresses to that of a state?". What is ridiculous is to make claims such as "Athens is too far" or "Greeks are foreigners". We could even unite into a single state with people who are even further from us and who are not even of the same ethnicity like us... united by our European culture commonalities... IF we believed this to be a good thing for our well being and our future. The Cypriot people should be free to make the choices that they believe are best for their own interests INCLUDING uniting with others. What I would take seriously is if you made the argument that you as a Turkish Cypriot felt that you would be threatened if Cyprus became part of Greece given the hostile history between Greece and Turkey.... and to that I would say "yeah, I can understand you", and I would accept your reaction against enosis, not because you had some official UN recognized "right" to determine on your own where Cyprus can belong but because I could understand how you would feel threatened by that specific kind of union. At the same time I would expect you to understand how for us enosis meant liberation after centuries of being oppressed by others. Independence might be an easy alternative to think of NOW but back then out of all Mediterranean islands non of them had been independent and enosis was a natural way to try to liberate ourselves given that the majority of the population are Greek and we were counting on the support of Greece on this effort. So maybe it is best to stop the blame game about the past and concentrate on correcting what is screwed up today so we can have a better future for all of us with more mutual understanding than what was shown in the past?