Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

Cyprus is Greek. Cyprus was Greek since the dawn of history and will remain Greek. Greek and undivided we have taken it over. Greek and undivided we shall preserve it. Greek and undivided we shall deliver it to Greece"

It has always been about the native Cypriot people who are Greek... those who had been oppressed by the British and previously by the Ottomans and who wanted their freedom from foreign oppression. We are part of the Greek people, you are part of the Turkish people

It is in the name of Enosis that Cyprus has been destroyed

We are part of Cyprus. You can't throw us out. So accommodate us. Let us accommodate ourselves. We don't want much. But we don't want to be 'not wanted'. That is the difficulty. For years we have been told by words and by action that we are not wanted in Cyprus, that Cyprus is not ours.

We didn't even want to ever need to talk to you or see you.

Your point is? You think that we should have wanted to be invaded by Turks who would oppressed us for centuries and they would bring their Settlers to our island whom they would later use as an excuse to continue to deny to us our freedom well into the 21st century? Our island is Greek and had we not been invaded by Turks we would't have any problems today. We didn't want to know you existed... had you stayed in your own homeland instead of invading ours then we would have ZERO such problems today, so why would we want to ever cross paths with you? And Denktash wanted A LOT more than what that quote claims. Your minority could be accommodated like any other minority... but that wasn't enough for you...you wanted to violate our democratic rights and force on us your will by collaborating with UK and Turkey... which is EXACTLY the reason why you were "not wanted". Who wants a cancer?

[erolz66]

You came as invaders and you remain invaders,....

We came as invaders and remain today as Cypriots, just as you do. The only difference between us is you did it before us and you left no trace of those before you after you came where as 'we' left you as a numerical majority. Better let you new friends the Americans (you know, the ones who ambassador you killed in 1974) know what their status is in their homeland according to you - and lets not even mention your other oil and gas 'buddies' Israel.

[Sotos]

You came as invaders and you remain invaders,....

We came as invaders and remain today as Cypriots, just as you do. The only difference between us is you did it before us and you left no trace of those before you after you came where as we left you as a numerical majority. Better let you new friends the Americans (you know, the ones who ambassador you killed in 1974) know what their status is in their homeland according to you - and lets not even mention your other oil and gas 'friend' Israel.

There are no such thing as "those before us". WE are THEM and ALL those people who came to Cyprus 1000s of years ago... most of them were Greek but every other one is in our DNA also. But you are a different story. You came as invaders relatively recently and never mixed with the natives... you choose separation instead of assimilation. Thats OK ... it was your choice.... but you remain invaders because you are illegally occupying 1/3rd of Cyprus TODAY. And I don't need to say anything to the Americans ... they now acknowledge the harm they did to the native people of America.... they are not in denial about everything like you. And many of the Jews were just returning to the land of their ancestors ... I do not approve of their ways... and not every Jew has ancestry from Israel... but never giving up is something we have in common with them

[Nikitas]

Erol said "So tell me Nikitas, what does Sotos and the views he espouses here represent ?"

Sotos expresses an abstract view, held by some. When reality strikes and you explain the facts of becoming a province of another country, as opposed to being independent, then they balk, coming up with all kinds of reasons why Cyprus, if united with Greece, would be a special case, retaining a kind of autonomy etc etc. None of the other islands that united with Greece retained special status.

A Greek consul to Alexandria, speaking to Greeks there, said "hellenism is a disease you get when you live abroad, and it is quickly cured when you go and live in Greece." The meaning is obvious. I have a hunch that the same holds true for Turkishness.

The crushing majority of GCs do not want to become a province of Greece. And the more Cypriots experience the realities of Greek daily life, even as weekend tourists, the more they realise how fortunate they are to live in a state which is independent. Gerald Durrel, the animal man, brother of the writer Lawrence, said "there is a lot to be said for being a small and independent country" after struggling with the UK civil service and having his problem solved by moving to Jersey.

I will put it another way: it is more beneficial to Hellenism as a whole to have a state populated by Greeks, and others, prospering, with a decent administration, which can exist outside the parameters of the Athenian state. Because taht gives Greeks themselves a standard by which to compare and judge their own system. The term Athenian state (Αθηνοκεντρικό Κράτος) is used by Greeks themselves to deride their own top heavy and ineffective buraucracy. Greeks themselves daily deride and curse their state system to the extent that Cypriot film director, the late Kakoyannis of Zorba the Greek fame said "some of the worst critics of Greece were borne there".

Professor Yannaras, (professor of theology) in his sunday column in Kathimerini (the most serious Greek paper) repeatedly castigates the Greek state and its ineffectiveness, the provincial small mindedness of its politicians. He also says that it is the Greeks who retain their Greekness while living in the broader context of Hellenism that are the true Greeks because they managed to retain the essence of being Greek, he calls it that "special otherness" while co existing with other cultures and ethnicities.

Sotos and others of that mindset refuse to see the all the facts. Yes the dominant historic and cultural stamp on Cyprus is Greek. But there are others there too. The same goes for those in the north that try to erase this fact by changing place names and hanging humongous flags. Calling Lapithos Lapta is doing a Sotos trick in reverse. It is the expression of a sense of identity insecurity that is surprising.

Deep down I think mainlanders dislike us, both of us, because we Cypriots are in a way Greeks and Turks plus something more, something the mainlanders lost. So they came to the island, in various guises, to teach us how to be better Greeks and Turks, and we were stupid enough not to realise that it was they who were lacking in national essence, not us.

[erolz66]

There are no such thing as "those before us". WE are THEM and ALL those people who came to Cyprus 1000s of years ago...

So let me get this straight. You are not invaders because every trace of those who were in Cyprus before you, their language, their culture has been replaced by you and your language and culture since you arrived in Cyprus ?

most of them were Greek but every other one is in our DNA also.

As 'we' are in your DNA and you in ours, yet that does not seem to count for 'us' but does for 'you' ?

But you are a different story. You came as invaders relatively recently and never mixed with the natives... you choose separation instead of assimilation.

Again let me get this straight. Because when you came to Cyprus you replaced totally everything that was there before such that today nothing before you cam exists, you are 'native' and because when we came we did NOT totally replace everything that came before us we are still 'invaders ?

but you remain invaders because you are illegally occupying 1/3rd of Cyprus TODAY.

Again I am confused. So we are invaders still today because of the events of 74 ? So were we 'invaders' in 65 when you illegal and unilaterally stole our rights under the 60's agreements or not ?

And I don't need to say anything to the Americans ... they now acknowledge the harm they did to the native people of America.... they are not in denial about everything like you.

So how about I use your 'favourite line' then. OK I will give you everything the European Americans have given the native people in the US ? OK ? You accept that ? You can have some reservation in Cyprus with limited sovereignty and ill say sorry for what the ottomans did during their rule of Cyprus. Everything OK then between us and you will not need to say anything to us about being invaders ? You will accept that Cyprus is our homeland as much as America is the homeland of European Americans ?

As far as I can tell Sotos you 'argument' is if when you arrive in a place that already has people in it, with a language different to yours and a culture different to yours, as long as you totally replace those people, their language and their culture with your own, you are then 'native' to that place but if you arrive and do NOT totally replace the previous people, their culture and language you are not native but invaders ? Is that your 'argument ?

[erolz66]

Sotos expresses an abstract view, .....

Thank you for your reply. If I may let me ask you another question. Do you think that as far as GC sought to pursue a Greek future for Cyprus following the end of British colonial rule, TC then had (and have) a right to a separate and equal right to self determination ? Where the right to self determination does not mean an automatic right to division, or a separate state but a RIGHT to have some effective say in such a fundamental decision that affects their lives in their own shared homeland, or not ?

[Sotos]

Sotos expresses an abstract view, .....

Thank you for your reply. If I may let me ask you another question. Do you think that as far as GC sought to pursue a Greek future for Cyprus following the end of British colonial rule, TC then had (and have) a right to a separate and equal right to self determination ? Where the right to self determination does not mean an automatic right to division, or a separate state but a RIGHT to have some effective say in such a fundamental decision that affects their lives in their own shared homeland, or not ?

Nikitas, maybe you didn't read all my posts and all of erols posts... so let me give you the gist of it. I do NOT support enosis. But erolz doesn't care at all about that. What he cares is basically to BLAME us for what happened in the 1950s. In other words to say that we didn't have the right to even peacefully and democratically choose where our island should belong when Cyprus was being decolonized, and that everything that they did ever since is therefore excused because GCs, supposedly, created the problem and the innocent Turks were merely reacting to it. Is this something you agree with?

[erolz66]

Nikitas, maybe you didn't read all my posts and all of erols posts... so let me give you the gist of it. I do NOT support enosis. But erolz doesn't care at all about that. What he cares is basically to BLAME us for what happened in the 1950s. In other words to say that we didn't have the right to even peacefully and democratically choose where our island should belong when Cyprus was being decolonized, and that everything that they did ever since is therefore excused because GCs, supposedly, created the problem and the innocent Turks were merely reacting to it. Is this something you agree with?

How about you let me summarise what I am saying , rather than you doing it for me ? Is that OK with you Sotos ?

I am saying that this issue of what rights the respective communities should have in Cyprus with regard to the status of Cyprus is at the core of understanding both how we came to be in the situation we are today AND at the core of how we might change the situation we are in today and replace it with something better.

My view is that as far as GC chose (and choose) to pursue a Greek future for all of Cyprus and all Cypriots and not a 'pan Cypriot' future, the TC community had (and has) a valid RIGHT to an effective say in such a decision as far as it affects them as a community within their own shared homeland. As far as I understand Sotos' view it is we did not and do not have any such right as a community in Cyprus who is not Greek, because (choose from any you like) we are not true Cypriots, we are invaders, we are numerically smaller than the GC community, what the ottomans did in Cyprus.

[Sotos]

There are no such thing as "those before us". WE are THEM and ALL those people who came to Cyprus 1000s of years ago...

So let me get this straight. You are not invaders because every trace of those who were in Cyprus before you, their language, their culture has been replaced by you and your language and culture since you arrived in Cyprus ?

most of them were Greek but every other one is in our DNA also.

As 'we' are in your DNA and you in ours, yet that does not seem to count for 'us' but does for 'you' ?

But you are a different story. You came as invaders relatively recently and never mixed with the natives... you choose separation instead of assimilation.

Again let me get this straight. Because when you came to Cyprus you replaced totally everything that was there before such that today nothing before you cam exists, you are 'native' and because when we came we did NOT totally replace everything that came before us we are still 'invaders ?

How many nations today do you know that they have the same culture as they did in the prehistoric times? Our culture, religion and almost everything is different from the prehistoric people of those times INCLUDING the Mycenaeans. What we are is a MIXTURE of the cultures of those people PLUS LOTS OF TIME (1000s of years) which changes almost everything. Different prehistoric and ancient groups lived together in Cyprus at the same time for many centuries and their assimilation was a gradual slow process... not some violent event like the 1974 Turkish invasion which ethnically cleansed 100s of thousands of native people within days and replaced then with foreigners. Also it wasn't like the Ottoman conquest either... where the Turks conquered the whole Cyprus at once. It was with the establishment of separate city states and different groups had their own independent city states at the same time. Maybe the various groups fought each other at times... but there was no genocide in Cyprus in those times ... like what the Turks have committed against many native peoples. The case with your minority is different because you came to Cyprus only relatively recently, the Ottomans had us separate and we had different religions so there wasn't a lot of mixing going on. Also there wasn't enough time... if we stayed together for 2-3 more centuries maybe we would assimilate also.

So how about I use your 'favourite line' then. OK I will give you everything the European Americans have given the native people in the US ? OK ? You accept that ? You can have some reservation in Cyprus with limited sovereignty and ill say sorry for what the ottomans did during their rule of Cyprus. Everything OK then between us and you will not need to say anything to us about being invaders ? You will accept that Cyprus is our homeland as much as America is the homeland of European Americans ?

You should do that with the Greek minority in Turkey. The Armenians demand at least an apology. And the Kurds who are the majority in Kurdistan deserve much more. In Cyprus we are the majority and all we need is democracy... and you don't even allow that!!

[Sotos]

Nikitas, maybe you didn't read all my posts and all of erols posts... so let me give you the gist of it. I do NOT support enosis. But erolz doesn't care at all about that. What he cares is basically to BLAME us for what happened in the 1950s. In other words to say that we didn't have the right to even peacefully and democratically choose where our island should belong when Cyprus was being decolonized, and that everything that they did ever since is therefore excused because GCs, supposedly, created the problem and the innocent Turks were merely reacting to it. Is this something you agree with?

How about you let me summarise what I am saying , rather than you doing it for me ? Is that OK with you Sotos ?

I am saying that this issue of what rights the respective communities should have in Cyprus with regard to the status of Cyprus is at the core of understanding both how we came to be in the situation we are today AND at the core of how we might change the situation we are in today and replace it with something better.

My view is that as far as GC chose (and choose) to pursue a Greek future for all of Cyprus and all Cypriots and not a 'pan Cypriot' future, the TC community had (and has) a valid RIGHT to an effective say in such a decision as far as it affects them as a community within their own shared homeland. As far as I understand Sotos' view it is we did not and do not have any such right as a community in Cyprus who is not Greek, because (choose from any you like) we are not true Cypriots, we are invaders, we are numerically smaller than the GC community, what the ottomans did in Cyprus.

You are not arguing about what rights the respective communities should have. You are arguing about what rights we had in the 1950s, trying to shift the blame on us and excuse your actions.