Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

GCs do not want to live in a mini version of Greece ....

So tell me Nikitas, what does Sotos and the views he espouses here represent ? An aberration ? An insignificant minority of opinion ? I ask these questions genuinely, for it is very hard for me to know. Do you understand why views such as his, expressed even now in 2014, 'concern me' as a TC that would like to believe we can do better in the future as Cypriots as we have done to date ?

[Lordo]

i am afraid his views are more widespread than we are led to believe. until every person who believes cyprus is greekis removed from cyprus, we shall not have peace.

[Sotos]

Were the Greeks of Constantinople, Smyrna, Trapezounta etc ASKED if they wanted their homelands to be part of some Turkish country ruled in Ankara? Were they asked if they want to be what you called "Turkish Greeks"?? NO. So where is the consistency compared to what you demand for your minority in Cyprus? If what happened to the Greek minority in Anatolia is acceptable to you, then if you were consistent enosis would be equally acceptable and you would be a "Greek Turk" ruling Greece together with the Greeks (in the same degree as "Turkish Greeks" rule Turkey).

Forget that all I talk about and want to talk about is Cyprus and all you seem able to talk about is Turkey. Forget that the formation of the Turkish nation and state, unlike the Cypriot nation and state, occurred before any international legal recognition of and framework for the right to self determination of peoples. Forget that, unlike Cyprus, the Turkish nation was not formed by the ENDING of colonial rule, but by an indigenous resistance to the attempted armed imposition OF colonial rule by several nations, Greece included. Forget that the status of Greeks in Turkey was formalised by international treaty agreed and signed by Greece. Forget all these fundamental differences and you are STILL left with

can you not understand the difference between 'have a nation ruled together by all of us that live and have our roots in this place event though we have different historic ethnic backgrounds' and 'you will have forced on you in your own homeland rule by people who do NOT live in your homeland and do not have roots there and you have no right to any say in this decision'.

When you talk about "self determination of peoples" you can't talk just about Cyprus. If something like that applied in Cyprus it should apply everywhere, and if minorities had such rights then the Greek minority in Anatolia should have been among the first one to receive those rights given that they have been in Anatolia for 1000s of years before the Turks and given the genocides and prosecution they suffered in the hands of the invading Turks. Also it is funny how a Turk can have a "homeland" spanning from Thrace to Kurdistan, while our homeland can supposedly only consist of a single island. How convenient for you! As far as the 1966 (ratified in 1976) UN resolution you posted, not only it does not apply to ethnic-minorities, but even if it did it would have applied equally to ALL, not just for yours.

So tell me Nikitas, what does Sotos and the views he espouses here represent ? An aberration ? An insignificant minority of opinion ? I ask these questions genuinely, for it is very hard for me to know. Do you understand why views such as his, expressed even now in 2014, 'concern me' as a TC that would like to believe we can do better in the future as Cypriots as we have done to date ?

Nikitas was clear, why are you twisting his words? You don't care for a better future...whom are you bullshiting ?? You are just trying to shift the blame for past events. In the specific topic of enosis I was clear and I said that neither I nor the majority of Cypriots want enosis today and for several decades already... and that is exactly what Nikitas said also! Enosis is a non-issue today. But you keep bringing this non-issue up for the SOLE reason of trying to shift the blame on us and excuse your crimes. Just admit it! But anyway ... I can give you the benefit of the doubt... lets agree to disagree about the past and lets talk about the better future of an independent Cyprus... lets see if you actually have any thoughts about that and how many posts you will be arsed to write about it without any blame shifting attempts!

[Sotos]

i am afraid his views are more widespread than we are led to believe. until every person who believes cyprus is greekis removed from cyprus, we shall not have peace.

Either you like it or not the majority of the population is ethnic Greek. Instead of trying to oppress our ethnic identity why not just accept it and respect it? That is how we get peace ... if you were really interested in peace that is ... because it is obvious that you are just trying to win a war against us.

[erolz66]

When you talk about "self determination of peoples" you can't talk just about Cyprus. If something like that applied in Cyprus it should apply everywhere, and if minorities had such rights then the Greek minority in Anatolia should have been among the first one to receive those rights given that they have been in Anatolia for 1000s of years before the Turks and given the genocides and prosecution they suffered in the hands of the invading Turks. Also it is funny how a Turk can have a "homeland" spanning from Thrace to Kurdistan, while our homeland can supposedly only consist of a single island. How convenient for you! As far as the 1966 (ratified in 1976) UN resolution you posted, not only it does not apply to ethnic-minorities, but even if it did it would have applied equally to ALL, not just for yours.

I talk about Cyprus because I am a Cypriot. Your argument is specious in the extreme. It is not just a case of acting everywhere, you are actually arguing that it applies 'every when' even to times BEFORE such rights existed under international law. It is no sort of argument at all. You can chose to have Greece as your homeland if you want, what you can not do is chose that and then claim it is an expression of the right to self determination of a unitary CYPRIOT people simply in order to try and deny the very same right to TC - yet this is exactly what you did try and do and in doing so you played a massive part in fucking up Cyprus for all of us and you still can not even see or understand that.

Nikitas was clear, why are you twisting his words?

Well excuse me if I see a discrepancy between Nikitas' claim "GCs do not want to live in a mini version of Greece " and the claims you have made in this thread.

You don't care for a better future...whom are you bullshiting ?? You are just trying to shift the blame for past events. In the specific topic of enosis I was clear and I said that neither I nor the majority of Cypriots want enosis today and for several decades already... and that is exactly what Nikitas said also! Enosis is a non-issue today. But you keep bringing this non-issue up for the SOLE reason of trying to shift the blame on us and excuse your crimes. Just admit it! But anyway ... I can give you the benefit of the doubt... lets agree to disagree about the past and lets talk about the better future of an independent Cyprus... lets see if you actually have any thoughts about that and how many posts you will be arsed to write about it without any blame shifting attempts!

I have ALREADY given you my thoughts. I have already said to you if you could only accept that actually I had and have a RIGHT to not have foreign rule - where foreign means rule by those who are NOT Cypriot - forced on me in my own homeland against my will and without ANY consideration for my wishes, then I would agree to a unitary Cyprus, no bizonality , no bi communality, no separate power to communities. The only thing I want is if you CHOSE to pursue desires that are NOT Cypriot but are in fact GREEK desires for MY homeland and MY future, that you accept I have a RIGHT to an (effective) say in such decisions as a Cypriot who is NOT Greek. Yet even this is 'too much' for you to accept, you continue to insist you had and have a RIGHT to impose something so fundamentally ANTI Cypriot, like enosis, on me in my own homeland and I have no right to do anything except just accept it. So what else is there to talk about with someone with views like yours except lets stop fucking around and negotiate a 'velvet divorce' ?

[erolz66]

Either you like it or not the majority of the population is ethnic Greek. Instead of trying to oppress our ethnic identity why not just accept it and respect it? That is how we get peace ... if you were really interested in peace that is ... because it is obvious that you are just trying to win a war against us.

I do not give a shit what ethnicity you chose to label yourself with if you do so as a CYPRIOT. Where the problems start is when you try to give away Cyprus to some state that is NOT Cyprus and try and do so in the name of a unitary Cypriot people as a means to deny me , a Cypriot, who is NOT of the ethnicity of the state you want to give Cyprus to, any right to an effective say in such a decision in my own homeland.

[erolz66]

Cyprus is Greek. Cyprus was Greek since the dawn of history and will remain Greek. Greek and undivided we have taken it over. Greek and undivided we shall preserve it. Greek and undivided we shall deliver it to Greece"

It has always been about the native Cypriot people who are Greek... those who had been oppressed by the British and previously by the Ottomans and who wanted their freedom from foreign oppression. We are part of the Greek people, you are part of the Turkish people

It is in the name of Enosis that Cyprus has been destroyed

We are part of Cyprus. You can't throw us out. So accommodate us. Let us accommodate ourselves. We don't want much. But we don't want to be 'not wanted'. That is the difficulty. For years we have been told by words and by action that we are not wanted in Cyprus, that Cyprus is not ours.

We didn't even want to ever need to talk to you or see you.

[Get Real!]

Either you like it or not the majority of the population is ethnic Greek.

Fuck your “ethnic identity” you empty headed treasonous little squirt, and may you drive straight into a bus carrying Greek tourists tomorrow!

You’ll be one less problem for this great country...

[repulsewarrior]

i am afraid his views are more widespread than we are led to believe. until every person who believes cyprus is greekis removed from cyprus, we shall not have peace.

sadly, sotos may be right in many ways, maybe the interlocutors, namely Turkey and England bungled the Lease between them, that Cyprus, is, Greek (like the rest of Greece, i.e. Lord Byron), or that Cyprus, is, Turkish, by historical fact, or, that Cyprus is both (if this is what "they" choose), and that it cannot thus be Cypriot (but I can't agree with him because, I don't agree with the notion that Cyprus "belongs" to anyone), luckily erolz is as strong a debater, and thus it is an enlightening discussion; I take comfort in knowing that there are Cypriots who understand the value of a Free Cyprus, that they are unlike the "Greeks" and the "Turks" that thrive on the hatred they feed to the exclusion of any other debate, and who act accordingly. it is not often I can say thank-you, to erolz because the reasoning is clear enough for me to agree with, and thank-you to sotos for being a most excellent foil...

...not true Lordo, I trust the People, but it takes courage to fly the Cypriot Flag higher, more of "us" must make this effort.

[Sotos]

You came as invaders and you remain invaders, showing no remorse for your past crimes and illegally occupying one third of our island in the 21st century! You are trying to blame us for the problems of Cyprus after invading us and oppressing us for centuries, discriminating against us for centuries, illegally occupying 1/3rd of our island for decades, murdering 10s of thousands of native Cypriots, ethnically cleansing 100s of thousands, collaborating with foreign Colonialists to deny to Cyprus its freedom and a magnitude of other crimes and atrocities! Greek rule is NOT a foreign rule in Cyprus because the native people who are also the majority of this island are Greek. Foreign rule was the British rule and the Ottoman rule but apparently that wasn't a problem for you! Well it was a huge problem to the REAL Cypriots, but how would you know?

If you want peace what you should do is END your crimes NOW and say a BIG SORRY to us... like you should say it to the Armenians, to the Kurds and to all the others you have oppressed since you invaded our native lands! Denying your crimes and trying to shift the blame on the native peoples who are the victims of the Turkish aggression is exactly why the problems continue!