Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Trust me when I tell you that some need to be shot for everyone’s sake…

[Sotos]

What is "foreign rule" to you? Either you like it or not we are as much Greek as any other Greek. And I am talking about the real Greek Cypriots of Cyprus, not some English Cypriots, Australian Cypriots etc who frequent this forum. Isn't the "rule" of Greek Cypriots, the people that existed in Cyprus long before there was anything Turkish, also a "foreign rule" to you? Is it really different for you being citizens of Greece as an ethnic minority vs being citizens of Cyprus as an ethnic minority?

Can you really be that stupid Sotos ? Can you really not see the difference between being ruled From Nicosia by Cypriots (some of whom may or may not consider themselves Greek) and being ruled from Athens by Greeks the vast majority of which will have never even set foot in Cyprus ever ?

I can see the difference but the question is if that difference matters to TCs. Most TCs would not accept to be ruled by Athens by mostly Greeks (Greece is not made by 100% Greeks either), in the same way they would not accept to be ruled by Nicosia by mostly Greeks. Do you disagree with this?

I do not speak for most TC - I speak for myself. Ruling Cyprus together with other Cypriots, whatever they consider themselves is acceptable to me. Being told I will be ruled by foreigners in my own homeland and that I have no right to any say is such a decision is not acceptable to me. Yet it was this you told me then and what you still try and tell me today. It is why, not solely but at the core of, we are in the situation we are in today and why it remains.

You got that reversed. We were not just "told" but actually forced to be ruled by foreigners... for centuries! If you were to be ruled by foreigners it is not because your homeland would be invaded and occupied by foreigners,... as it was the case with us, but because the land that your ancestors invaded would be freed. It wasn't your "right" to use force to AGAIN prevent us to be freed. We fully deserved the freedom to democratically decide for our own island after centuries of foreign oppression. You might claim that enosis was a problem for you ... and I accept that. But you created much bigger problems to us. You didn't just tell us that we have to be ruled by foreigners... you forced it on us for centuries... and now for 40 years you are still occupying a third of our island. Claiming that enosis is at the core of the problem is just your self-centered view that ignores the problems of the majority of Cypriots which didn't start with enosis and didn't end when the enosis cause was long over.

[Viewpoint]

As long as people think like Sotos there will never be a solution because they still support enosis and not an independent Cyprus. If the majority try to force something as drastic as giving away their country on the minority, then can you blame that minority for fighting back? your enosis for us meant a death sentence, thats why we fought for our lives. If you tried to force freedom and equality on all Cypriots do you really believe we would have a divided island. People are not stupid if they see that everything is improving and they are not dealt with as second class citizens they will not oppose rule or demand taksim....you messed up big time with your enosis dream, man up and admit it because your posts on perpetuate the wrongs of the past and ensure that we cannot find a solution...then again that maybe your goal.

[erolz66]

You got that reversed. We were not just "told" but actually forced to be ruled by foreigners... for centuries! If you were to be ruled by foreigners it is not because your homeland would be invaded and occupied by foreigners,... as it was the case with us, but because the land that your ancestors invaded would be freed. It wasn't your "right" to use force to AGAIN prevent us to be freed. We fully deserved the freedom to democratically decide for our own island after centuries of foreign oppression. You might claim that enosis was a problem for you ... and I accept that. But you created much bigger problems to us. You didn't just tell us that we have to be ruled by foreigners... you forced it on us for centuries... and now for 40 years you are still occupying a third of our island. Claiming that enosis is at the core of the problem is just your self-centered view that ignores the problems of the majority of Cypriots which didn't start with enosis and didn't end when the enosis cause was long over.

Firstly if you could have got away with ignoring and denying us our rights by force you would have, you certainly tried.

Your argument is, because of what the ottomans did to 'you' in 1571 to 1890 before any legal frame work for human rights existed this justifies you trying to deny us our rights as a community from 1960 onwards when legal framework for such rights did exist. And you accuse me of trying to justify 'my sides' crimes !

So we go round the loop one more time. You can believe the above if you like, you can believe that GC had and have communal rights in Cyprus and TC do not, you can and will believe these things. The plain fact it is exactly these 'beliefs' that have got us to the mess we are in today and prevent us getting out of it. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Sotos]

You got that reversed. We were not just "told" but actually forced to be ruled by foreigners... for centuries! If you were to be ruled by foreigners it is not because your homeland would be invaded and occupied by foreigners,... as it was the case with us, but because the land that your ancestors invaded would be freed. It wasn't your "right" to use force to AGAIN prevent us to be freed. We fully deserved the freedom to democratically decide for our own island after centuries of foreign oppression. You might claim that enosis was a problem for you ... and I accept that. But you created much bigger problems to us. You didn't just tell us that we have to be ruled by foreigners... you forced it on us for centuries... and now for 40 years you are still occupying a third of our island. Claiming that enosis is at the core of the problem is just your self-centered view that ignores the problems of the majority of Cypriots which didn't start with enosis and didn't end when the enosis cause was long over.

Firstly if you could have got away with ignoring and denying us our rights by force you would have, you certainly tried.

Your argument is, because of what the ottomans did to 'you' in 1571 to 1890 before any legal frame work for human rights existed this justifies you trying to deny us our rights as a community from 1960 onwards when legal framework for such rights did exist. And you accuse me of trying to justify 'my sides' crimes !

So we go round the loop one more time. You can believe the above if you like, you can believe that GC had and have communal rights in Cyprus and TC do not, you can and will believe these things. The plain fact it is exactly these 'beliefs' that have got us to the mess we are in today and prevent us getting out of it. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

It wasn't your right to continue to deny our freedom and impose your will on the native majority EXACTLY because the era of "might is right" was supposed to be over. But what you did and what you continue doing is not much different than what the Ottomans did. As you say those who cannot learn from history will repeat it ... and the Turks have learned nothing during the past several centuries. They are still exactly the same invading land garbing scumbags they have always been.

[erolz66]

It wasn't your right to continue to deny our freedom ....

This is exactly the problem. You thought and think your 'freedoms' include a right to impose foreign rule on us in our own homeland against our will and without the need for any consideration for our wants. That is the 'freedom' we denied you. Whilst you continue to think and insist you freedoms include a right to impose foreign rule on us with no regard for our wishes the problem remains.

[Sotos]

It wasn't your right to continue to deny our freedom ....

This is exactly the problem. You thought and think your 'freedoms' include a right to impose foreign rule on us in our own homeland against our will and without the need for any consideration for our wants. That is the 'freedom' we denied you. Whilst you continue to think and insist you freedoms include a right to impose foreign rule on us with no regard for our wishes the problem remains.

First of all Greek rule in Cyprus is not "foreign rule" because the native people who are also the majority are Greek. It might be foreign to you but that is just because you invaded an island which was the homeland of Greeks... blame your ancestors for invading foreign lands... not those foreigners to you for wanting their freedom! Secondly, what you (and the British) denied to us was not just the unity of our nation... how about that 30% public servant positions for the 18% of people and all the other discriminations benefiting your minority? How about the two "sovereign" bases benefiting the British?

[erolz66]

First of all Greek rule in Cyprus is not "foreign rule" because the native people who are also the majority are Greek.

Yeah right and all these 'Greeks' in Cyprus I am sure will be only too happy for Athens to accrue all the future revenue from the oil and gas reserves around Cyprus and decide how and where it is spent and not Cypriots in Nicosia.

It might be foreign to you but that is just because you invaded an island which was the homeland of Greeks...

It is foreign to me because CYPRUS (not Turkey not Greece) IS my homeland. It is foreign to me because I am CYPRIOT and by definition rule by anyone other than CYPRIOTS is foreign rule. It does not matter how much YOU say I am Turk and YOU say 'you have no communal rights in Cyprus because your ancestors 20 generations ago invaded Cyprus' no one but fanatics like you accept this. The UN does not say TC can have and will have no communal rights in Cyprus because they are invaders. The EU does not say this. Hell even the RoC does not say it officially. Only anti Cypriot fanatics like you say it Sotos - exactly the kind of fanatics (on both sides) that got us into this mess I might add.

not those foreigners to you for wanting their freedom!

The freedom you want is the freedom to force foreign rule on me and my community in our own homeland without us having any say in the matter. The freedom I want is to not have foreign rule imposed on me in my own homeland without me having any say in the matter. Can you see the difference between these too ?

[Sotos]

By definition a Greek rule can not be a foreign rule to Greeks. It is foreign rule to YOU because YOU invaded my island and YOU forced a foreign rule on us and you created an ethnic minority among what to you are foreigners. "Cypriot" just refers to the specific place of origin ... it is NOT an ethnicity. It is like saying "Paphitis" to indicate that the origin of somebody is from Paphos. Cyprus was forced to have some dysfunctional independence ONLY because this is what served the interests of the British and the Turks... not because we had some separate Cypriot ethnicity! And I didn't say that you have no minority rights. You do. But we also have majority rights, one of which is "Majority Rules" ... not any Ottomans or British or any minority ... but the MAJORITY. This is our right which you are violating for centuries and you still don't show any sign of respecting and THIS is the root of the problem.

Yeah right and all these 'Greeks' in Cyprus I am sure will be only too happy for Athens to accrue all the future revenue from the oil and gas reserves around Cyprus and decide how and where it is spent and not Cypriots in Nicosia.

See... there is a good argument! You can't say Cyprus can't be part of Greece because we are not Greek. You can't say that Cyprus can't be part of Greece because your minority can take decisions about where Cyprus should belong. But what you can argue is why the people of this island can DEMOCRATICALLY CHOOSE not to be part of Greece... and that is a valid argument! If Turkey and the British honestly wanted an independent Cyprus then they should have given to Cypriots a really good independent state ... without bases, without discrimination against the majority and all the other shit. But instead of proposing to us something that we would gladly CHOOSE, Britain and Turkey instead created something that was so crappy for the majority of Cypriots and they FORCED it on us!

[erolz66]

By definition a Greek rule can not be a foreign rule to Greeks.

And by definition it is foreign rule to Cypriots. Which is exactly the point. If you are or choose to be Greek then you are by definition NOT the same people as TC. The right to self determination applies to peoples. Read it, it is there in black and white. You want to both claim you are Greek and that union with Greece is the will of a unitary CYPRIOT people. This is your madness and the madness that has got us to the mess we are in today.