Cyprus-Forum.com

[MrH]

This goes out to, not only the Greek Cypriot administration, but to ALL peoples living on the island of Cyprus. It is both undisputed, a reality and a fact:

In order for a Comprehensive Solution to the Cyprus problem to materialise, the Signature of BOTH the Greek and Turkish Cypriots are required. If either community (peoples) are dismissed or dishonourably disregarded, a Cyprus Solution can never become a reality.

So I ask, if we can not settle our differences, if the Greek Cypriots continue to dismiss the wishes of the Turkish Cypriot people in their plight for a BBF based on an Equal footing, how can this problem ever be resolved? Blasting, screaming, shouting, blaming and disregarding the Turkish Cypriots will only deepen the crisis on the island. While, perhaps a new directive may save both peoples from heading towards a head on crash!

[Get Real!]

"Comprehensive Solution" = To each his own interpretation of what constitutes a solution.

"BBF based on an Equal footing" = To each his own dreams…

"how can this problem ever be resolved" = To each his own interpretation of the actual nature of the problem.

"perhaps a new directive" = To each his own dreams that the other party will give up.

[bill cobbett]

Ah, Mr H...

Firstly, your terms are far too general, on both sides of the cease-fire lines, some people want a settlement, some reckon the present situation is the settlement, some are happy to compromise, some are not... and naturally, there are all sorts of varied opinions in between.

Secondly, a few days ago, Yeniduzen published a piece that said that the talks were near to collapse and the writer of the article was laying the reason for their imminent collapse at "plan B" Eroglu's door.

Are you able to give us an honest insight please...???

[MrH]

by bill cobbett » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:00 pm

Ah, Mr H...

Firstly, your terms are far too general, on both sides of the cease-fire lines, some people want a settlement, some reckon the present situation is the settlement, some are happy to compromise, some are not... and naturally, there are all sorts of varied opinions in between.

Secondly, a few days ago, Yeniduzen published a piece that said that the talks were near to collapse and the writer of the article was laying the reason for their imminent collapse at "plan B" Eroglu's door.

Are you able to give us an honest insight please...???

Hi Bill, thank you for your reply and the manner in which you have asked your question - appreciate the kind response.

In response to your first paragrah, you are completely right in terms of the shear dynamics of what people regard as a solution, which is also why we are in this mess! If we look at other conflict areas, in europe and elsewhere, the (their) final outcome have all ended in some kind of conflict or partition. As Cyprus is a small island, and not a large over-populated country, I would like to believe that a compromising BBF based formular is still viable for the sake of all our people on both sides; seeing that they happily and freely cross the board, visit each side and now work with each other from lower to higher (university for instance) levels.

As for the second part, and I would like to quote

at "plan B" Eroglu's door

, I would like to say that I have heard it all before and don't believe a word of it until I see signs - why? Because I don't believe Eroglu has the power! The truth of the matter is that Turkey wants Cyprus to formulate an agreement based on a Bi-Communal, Bi-Zonal, Federation (BBF) of two states under ONE umbrella - Period. If it wanted Partition, and I say this with confidence, it could easily have used the events of 1963/4, 1974 Coup on the 15th July by Greece, the Annan Plan rejection's and the GC-administered ROC into the EU as a Pretext in achieving that aim...and I am certain that people like yourself, Get Real and others know that Turkey could easily have done it.

But....No! I can tell you that today, now, and since 1974, Turkey is bent on achieving a BBF even if it takes another 100 years of waiting and being accused of being a so-called "Occupier". Remember, the Cyprus issue is one set and agreed to be resolved within the parameters of the UN and not really the EU, which is why the EU, and Turkey for that matter, will have to eventually reach some kind of mutual understanding. I admit that Turkey can not dismiss the EU, while the EU can also not dismiss Turkey at the same token. Turkey well and truly wants a settlement and the Greek Cypriots need to hope that they are not to blame for today's failure of the talks. Not that partition will occur, which it won't (trust me on that), but that in every passing day, year, or decade a solution is delayed, the Turkish Cypriot side becomes more "Turkish" and the Greek Cypriot's negotiating hand become less effective and significant due to the many factors ranging from economics, the changing of Turkey itself, the increase in the population of the TRNC, the people on both sides not really caring as much anymore and (more importantly) the prospective revenue and influencde from the new GAS finds pushing the Greek Cypriots into an urgent and uncompromising situation. This uncompromising situation may just leave the Greek Cypriots with a UN based plan far worse than what they were unwilling to sign on the Annan Plan!

Turkey wants a BBF - trust me on that one.

I hope I have answered you question(s)?

[bill cobbett]

Thx for the favour of your reply Mr H. Later.

[boulio]

by bill cobbett » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:00 pm

Ah, Mr H...

Firstly, your terms are far too general, on both sides of the cease-fire lines, some people want a settlement, some reckon the present situation is the settlement, some are happy to compromise, some are not... and naturally, there are all sorts of varied opinions in between.

Secondly, a few days ago, Yeniduzen published a piece that said that the talks were near to collapse and the writer of the article was laying the reason for their imminent collapse at "plan B" Eroglu's door.

Are you able to give us an honest insight please...???

Hi Bill, thank you for your reply and the manner in which you have asked your question - appreciate the kind response.

In response to your first paragrah, you are completely right in terms of the shear dynamics of what people regard as a solution, which is also why we are in this mess! If we look at other conflict areas, in europe and elsewhere, the (their) final outcome have all ended in some kind of conflict or partition. As Cyprus is a small island, and not a large over-populated country, I would like to believe that a compromising BBF based formular is still viable for the sake of all our people on both sides; seeing that they happily and freely cross the board, visit each side and now work with each other from lower to higher (university for instance) levels.

As for the second part, and I would like to quote

at "plan B" Eroglu's door

, I would like to say that I have heard it all before and don't believe a word of it until I see signs - why? Because I don't believe Eroglu has the power! The truth of the matter is that Turkey wants Cyprus to formulate an agreement based on a Bi-Communal, Bi-Zonal, Federation (BBF) of two states under ONE umbrella - Period. If it wanted Partition, and I say this with confidence, it could easily have used the events of 1963/4, 1974 Coup on the 15th July by Greece, the Annan Plan rejection's and the GC-administered ROC into the EU as a Pretext in achieving that aim...and I am certain that people like yourself, Get Real and others know that Turkey could easily have done it.

But....No! I can tell you that today, now, and since 1974, Turkey is bent on achieving a BBF even if it takes another 100 years of waiting and being accused of being a so-called "Occupier". Remember, the Cyprus issue is one set and agreed to be resolved within the parameters of the UN and not really the EU, which is why the EU, and Turkey for that matter, will have to eventually reach some kind of mutual understanding. I admit that Turkey can not dismiss the EU, while the EU can also not dismiss Turkey at the same token. Turkey well and truly wants a settlement and the Greek Cypriots need to hope that they are not to blame for today's failure of the talks. Not that partition will occur, which it won't (trust me on that), but that in every passing day, year, or decade a solution is delayed, the Turkish Cypriot side becomes more "Turkish" and the Greek Cypriot's negotiating hand become less effective and significant due to the many factors ranging from economics, the changing of Turkey itself, the increase in the population of the TRNC, the people on both sides not really caring as much anymore and (more importantly) the prospective revenue and influencde from the new GAS finds pushing the Greek Cypriots into an urgent and uncompromising situation. This uncompromising situation may just leave the Greek Cypriots with a UN based plan far worse than what they were unwilling to sign on the Annan Plan!

Turkey wants a BBF - trust me on that one.

I hope I have answered you question(s)?

i think most greek cypriots would comprimise if it was a true federal model,but whats being discussed is not.When you have permanent derogations based on ethnicity and upsurption of property rights and third party intervention rights.THen there will never be a agreement.Political euqality does not mean numerical equality which is a huge sticking point in the negotiations.IN a federal model the tc would run most of their affairs on a state basis but in the federal level it woud be majority rule for the functions that are left to the federal govt.The question is o the tc want a true federal model?

[Lordo]

what is it you stupid people do not understand. you will not be allowed to dominate tcs ever again. it really is not rocket science. derogation, my ...............

[MrH]

boulio » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:27 pm

MrH wrote:
by bill cobbett » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:00 pm

Ah, Mr H...

Firstly, your terms are far too general, on both sides of the cease-fire lines, some people want a settlement, some reckon the present situation is the settlement, some are happy to compromise, some are not... and naturally, there are all sorts of varied opinions in between.

Secondly, a few days ago, Yeniduzen published a piece that said that the talks were near to collapse and the writer of the article was laying the reason for their imminent collapse at "plan B" Eroglu's door.

Are you able to give us an honest insight please...???


Hi Bill, thank you for your reply and the manner in which you have asked your question - appreciate the kind response.

In response to your first paragrah, you are completely right in terms of the shear dynamics of what people regard as a solution, which is also why we are in this mess! If we look at other conflict areas, in europe and elsewhere, the (their) final outcome have all ended in some kind of conflict or partition. As Cyprus is a small island, and not a large over-populated country, I would like to believe that a compromising BBF based formular is still viable for the sake of all our people on both sides; seeing that they happily and freely cross the board, visit each side and now work with each other from lower to higher (university for instance) levels.

As for the second part, and I would like to quote
at "plan B" Eroglu's door, I would like to say that I have heard it all before and don't believe a word of it until I see signs - why? Because I don't believe Eroglu has the power! The truth of the matter is that Turkey wants Cyprus to formulate an agreement based on a Bi-Communal, Bi-Zonal, Federation (BBF) of two states under ONE umbrella - Period. If it wanted Partition, and I say this with confidence, it could easily have used the events of 1963/4, 1974 Coup on the 15th July by Greece, the Annan Plan rejection's and the GC-administered ROC into the EU as a Pretext in achieving that aim...and I am certain that people like yourself, Get Real and others know that Turkey could easily have done it.

But....No! I can tell you that today, now, and since 1974, Turkey is bent on achieving a BBF even if it takes another 100 years of waiting and being accused of being a so-called "Occupier". Remember, the Cyprus issue is one set and agreed to be resolved within the parameters of the UN and not really the EU, which is why the EU, and Turkey for that matter, will have to eventually reach some kind of mutual understanding. I admit that Turkey can not dismiss the EU, while the EU can also not dismiss Turkey at the same token. Turkey well and truly wants a settlement and the Greek Cypriots need to hope that they are not to blame for today's failure of the talks. Not that partition will occur, which it won't (trust me on that), but that in every passing day, year, or decade a solution is delayed, the Turkish Cypriot side becomes more "Turkish" and the Greek Cypriot's negotiating hand become less effective and significant due to the many factors ranging from economics, the changing of Turkey itself, the increase in the population of the TRNC, the people on both sides not really caring as much anymore and (more importantly) the prospective revenue and influencde from the new GAS finds pushing the Greek Cypriots into an urgent and uncompromising situation. This uncompromising situation may just leave the Greek Cypriots with a UN based plan far worse than what they were unwilling to sign on the Annan Plan!

Turkey wants a BBF - trust me on that one.

I hope I have answered you question(s)?


i think most greek cypriots would comprimise if it was a true federal model,but whats being discussed is not.When you have permanent derogations based on ethnicity and upsurption of property rights and third party intervention rights.THen there will never be a agreement.Political euqality does not mean numerical equality which is a huge sticking point in the negotiations.IN a federal model the tc would run most of their affairs on a state basis but in the federal level it woud be majority rule for the functions that are left to the federal govt.The question is o the tc want a true federal model?

Hi Boulio,

I was hoping that you would reply. I hope Get Real, Maximus and the others can view this as well as I truly want you all to hear what I am about to say and honestly reply to it.

I am going to comment on the following and hope it will make you (happy) realise that a federal model even with Derogations is not as bad as you think:

You said:

When you have permanent derogations

Answer
Look, and I may give away who I am here, but I am going to say it anyway as I know the ins and outs of EU Law - completely! With regards to [restrictions on] "Derogations", "Freedom of movement", and "Freedom of Settlement", no matter what is, or can be included, in ANY Cyprus Federal agreement, whether it be two states or three, any swaying on the EU's fundamental principals can only be a Temporary measure. Yes! There you have it Boulio. Under EU Law, and seeing that the entire Island of Cyprus has been accepted under the EU umbrella regardless of it's current situation, any restrictions of the CORE EU Principals of the Freedom of Movement, and or Settlement can never be permanently applied to any Federal based agreement, whether a loose or tight central government of the EU. This is why we were shocked when you rejected the Annan Plan as by now, after 10 years, Cyprus would have had no sign of the Turkish Army settled on the island and the principals of those two core fundamentals would, and could, have been easily disputed and won in any European court of Law. Furthermore, in order for such a permanent derogation to be properly enforced, which is impossible, ALL 27 members of the European Union would have had to sign a New Treaty to implement it - which is also impossible as that would go completely against the principals the EU itself. I hope you understand what I have said, and if you don't, consult a Constitutional lawyer or speak directly to a member of the EU Parliament who knows. Therefore, if that's really all that was concerning you, then sit and relax Boulio as that is why the former Yugoslavia new that they had to split into proper Republic states - although when they all eventually join the EU it won't really matter!

I hope you will look into the above properly and understand that, while Turkey is still warm on a BBF and is demanding it, no matter what they wish to include in the agreement, the very next day after an agreement under a United Federal Cyprus of (perhaps) two federated states, any restrictions of those EU Core Principals will be easily reversed with one swish of a wand.

And, I haven't even mentioned the areas of democratic voting yet! Read up on how it would also be impossible to restrict anyone on the island whom chooses to settle anywhere in the EU from voting his/her MP/MEP, regardless of any locally applied restrictions. If a Turkish or Greek should have relocated to the other federated state, permanently, they under EU law and under all of its democratic principals and practices they would legally have a right to vote for whom they want.

Thanks.

[boulio]

the annan plan had permenant derogations and right of return.It aslo had ti ntervention rights of turkey and turkish troops permantly stationed on the island.Idont know what plan you were reading but annan 5 had the above thats why its was rejected.i suggest you read Claire Palley An International Relations Debacle,and go to the appendix of ambassador ziyal 11 points that were incorporated the last minute in annan 5.

[MrH]

by boulio » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:54 pm

the annan plan had permenant derogations and right of return.It aslo had ti ntervention rights of turkey and turkish troops permantly stationed on the island.Idont know what plan you were reading but annan 5 had the above thats why its was rejected.i suggest you read Claire Palley An International Relations Debacle,and go to the appendix of ambassador ziyal 11 points that were incorporated the last minute in annan 5.

Boulio, please consult with others on this as the "Annan Plan" would have been a thing of the past by now as the United Cyprus Republic would have been a Fully functioning state of the European Union subjected to its complete core values, rules and laws Synonymous to any of the other existing members. Any Derogations, by now, would have all been removed, disputed and washed away. Please consult with a lawyer on this to shed some more light on the matter as I am sure it would make you both happy and sad. Happy that you have a second chance to accept such a similar plan, and sad that you missed your chance. I am not kidding with you on this. Walk into a Greek Cypriot Law office and sit with them with a copy of the legal principals of EU Law applied to all of its member states. Answer this, how many times has the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus been changed, updated and adapted to EU principals since 2004?

Exactly!