Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyro ,whether we like it or not, the ECHR does put a money value on contraventions of rights and sees compensation as a suitable redress and it has also approved the effectiveness of local remedies on both sides of the cease-fire line in recent judgments, so applications to the ECHR will be a waste of time.

The EU on the other hand is a difference situation.

This is the link you gave to the letter that would have been sent to the EU in the Anan appendices... cyprus34566-30.html?hilit=co%20presidents#p679113

Depending on what the 2003 CY Accession Treaty says, and this really needs examining, it's unlikely (imho) that anything like this 20 line letter to the Commission would be sufficient.

The 2003 CY Treaty may need a lengthy Renegotiation and even then, some EU elements aren't negotiable.

... which is why it is terribly important that, as Pres A says, an EU Committee be set up at the talks, with a lot of input from the Commission and its expert advice.

That;s a valid point BillC.

[erolz66]

....and it has also approved the effectiveness of local remedies on both sides of the cease-fire line in recent judgments,...

Not true.

True.

Bill you have already recently shown your blatant distortion of echr rulings in an earlier thread, I have little appetite for another round of your BS. Please just quote the case number(s) where the ECHR has 'approved the effectiveness of RoC local remedies' with regards to TC property in the south. Or will you now claim that because they have not (yet) ruled against the RoC in this regard that is the same as them 'approving the effectiveness' of such remedies - as they have explicitly done with regards to the IPC ? As shameless as ever.

[bill cobbett]

Pyro ,whether we like it or not, the ECHR does put a money value on contraventions of rights and sees compensation as a suitable redress and it has also approved the effectiveness of local remedies on both sides of the cease-fire line in recent judgments, so applications to the ECHR will be a waste of time.

The EU on the other hand is a difference situation.

This is the link you gave to the letter that would have been sent to the EU in the Anan appendices... cyprus34566-30.html?hilit=co%20presidents#p679113

Depending on what the 2003 CY Accession Treaty says, and this really needs examining, it's unlikely (imho) that anything like this 20 line letter to the Commission would be sufficient.

The 2003 CY Treaty may need a lengthy Renegotiation and even then, some EU elements aren't negotiable.

... which is why it is terribly important that, as Pres A says, an EU Committee be set up at the talks, with a lot of input from the Commission and its expert advice.

That;s a valid point BillC.

Well, it's all getting a bit academic file as we hear more reports that the talks are in a very bad state.

[Pyrpolizer]

Eroglu REFUSES to discuss a)The percentage land issue b)the settlers issue and another one i think c)the security issue

So essentially refuses to discuss the CP! Anastasiades very rightly gave him a deadline. After that Erogly may better go to bed.

[Nikitas]

"BOTH" as in two parties, when in reality we have indigenous communities who do not belong and cannot be identified with EITHER major block, ie Maronites, Armenians, Latins, Roma. If the 18 per cent can be made equal to 80 then the 2 per cent can equal the 18. The arbitrary division into two has been a Turkish ploy since the start and from there come the BI- in Bizonal when it should have MULTI all along, each one equal to the others.

No not both signatures are required if the RoC unilaterally cedes territory to the TC community and casts them off on their own. It would be a sovereign act of a sovereign state. Remember the fox who bites off its leg caught ina trap to free itself.The cost is dear, but there is also survival at the end of it for all non TC communities of Cyprus.

[repulsewarrior]

...dialog is needed. it would be helpful if there was a plan, on paper, that Eroglu can offer. it would be a wonderful opportunity to move forward if that is what is desired, for Cyprus, to lay your cards down on the table. and as has been said, a stage of give and take has arrived, it is a logical extension at which point to ask, what is to give, what is to take.

unless the regime in the north comes up with solid proposals that reflect the desires of all Mankind (but Turkey), very soon, it will be clear what equal they have, because without new thinking, what credibility they have left will be found to be most hollow. this in my mind is most hopeful, because it is about time that the Cypriot Turks so to speak withdraw from the Agenda, and allow Turkish Cypriots to speak. indeed it is the same in the south, the need to appreciate what value there is in defending each other, as Cypriots. Eroglu, at this moment stands as a Statesman, by presenting a proposal where he, and we, can stand in front of a Cypriot Flag, for Cyprus, or he will diminish himself for having no ideas.

...I'm not rooting for Eroglu, but frankly I'm rooting for Turkish Cypriots who see the value in these negotiations, at this juncture, to express themselves, and to challenge their equals who like them may be Greek, but not "Greek", to speak up as well.

@Nikitas, "BOTH", may describe, the Republic and the Constituencies, the People as Individuals, for Freedom, and at another level of Government the People as Persons, for Liberty. being Bicommunal, without a Greek Constituency, given that a Turkish Constituency exists, and a Republic, Cyprus has no internal politics, what is "Greek" politics becomes the State's politics, the Republic as such is left impotent, and (seen to be) in its (the "Greeks") power, being in numbers an overwhelming majority. we in essence must free each other as Cypriots from a bond which is only a mythic reality; as you suggest, "BOTH", cannot mean, "Turkish", and not "Turkish" (read: Greek).

...but "BOTH" can mean the Nations Communally, and the State; nothing prevents the Cypriot Constituencies to discuss the matters where they all have exactly the same needs. it would not surprise me that they could come to a unanimous conclusion, without the question of Sovereignty, and especially if there is a superior Government open to this reform.

[zan]

"BOTH" as in two parties, when in reality we have indigenous communities who do not belong and cannot be identified with EITHER major block, ie Maronites, Armenians, Latins, Roma. If the 18 per cent can be made equal to 80 then the 2 per cent can equal the 18. The arbitrary division into two has been a Turkish ploy since the start and from there come the BI- in Bizonal when it should have MULTI all along, each one equal to the others.

No not both signatures are required if the RoC unilaterally cedes territory to the TC community and casts them off on their own. It would be a sovereign act of a sovereign state. Remember the fox who bites off its leg caught ina trap to free itself.The cost is dear, but there is also survival at the end of it for all non TC communities of Cyprus.

Shame those groups are only remembered when a "majority" is needed. The fact is that a partnership WAS formed by the two main peoples since 1960. I have no objection to the other groups in Cyprus demanding equal status in a new constitution. The first to object would be the GCs……..It being a greek island and all

[Nikitas]

Hold on a minute. There was never any mistreatment of any of these minorities by the GC community and many of them are prosperous and leading figures in Cyprus today. One example whose name we can mention is Karoyan, head of a major political party for some years, there are also business names like Ouzounian, Melkonian known throughgout Cyprus. Some of the top lawyers are members of the Latin community.

By contrast, the first act of expulsion on a communal scale was that of the Nicosia Armenians by the TMT in February 1964. So if past history is a guide, the smaller communities know how they are treated and by whom.

Developments in the TRNC and the institutionalised primacy of Turks is indicative of minorities treatment since 1974.

In a wider EU context where the guiding principle is MULTI lateralism the BI bit is outmoded and will cause problems.

The treatment of the minor communitiews in the Annan plan was joke too, but no one seemed to notice back then. Instead of full equality they were given a forced fit into the BI bit. No one asked why members of these communities should be permanently barred from aspiring to the highest offices of the planned federal state. They bent over backwards to accomodate illegally transported colonists from Turkey but no one gave a crap about Maronites who have been on the island since the 9th century, for instance.

As for granting them specific territorial zones, that was not even imagined let alone proposed by Annan.

[zan]

Hold on a minute. There was never any mistreatment of any of these minorities by the GC community and many of them are prosperous and leading figures in Cyprus today. One example whose name we can mention is Karoyan, head of a major political party for some years, there are also business names like Ouzounian, Melkonian known throughgout Cyprus. Some of the top lawyers are members of the Latin community.

By contrast, the first act of expulsion on a communal scale was that of the Nicosia Armenians by the TMT in February 1964. So if past history is a guide, the smaller communities know how they are treated and by whom.

Developments in the TRNC and the institutionalised primacy of Turks is indicative of minorities treatment since 1974.

In a wider EU context where the guiding principle is MULTI lateralism the BI bit is outmoded and will cause problems.

The treatment of the minor communitiews in the Annan plan was joke too, but no one seemed to notice back then. Instead of full equality they were given a forced fit into the BI bit. No one asked why members of these communities should be permanently barred from aspiring to the highest offices of the planned federal state. They bent over backwards to accomodate illegally transported colonists from Turkey but no one gave a crap about Maronites who have been on the island since the 9th century, for instance.

As for granting them specific territorial zones, that was not even imagined let alone proposed by Annan.

You are mixing up your timelines as you did when you said the Turks drove you out in 1963. I never mentioned mistreatment but political equality regardless of numbers. If ENOSIS had not been the main aim of GCs then you could also claim what you claim about your TC "minorities". History/circumstance dictated in forming of the 1960 constitution and the same if the Annan Plan. You make it sound as if the TCs alone put the Annan Plan together and they alone are responsible for any objections you have to it. May I remind you that virtually all those, including GCs put that plan together. Any objections and/or recommendations should have been made then. Not the sabotage we saw. I have spoken to countless TCs who also say that the AP was one sided and gave too much to GCs so I think the word is compromise. It is not the place of GCs or TCs to put the case of other peoples of the island if they are not doing it for themselves so claiming some sort of moral issue is just misplaced propaganda.

[Pyrpolizer]

You are mixing up your timelines as you did when you said the Turks drove you out in 1963. I never mentioned mistreatment but political equality regardless of numbers. If ENOSIS had not been the main aim of GCs then you could also claim what you claim about your TC "minorities". History/circumstance dictated in forming of the 1960 constitution and the same if the Annan Plan. You make it sound as if the TCs alone put the Annan Plan together and they alone are responsible for any objections you have to it. May I remind you that virtually all those, including GCs put that plan together. Any objections and/or recommendations should have been made then. Not the sabotage we saw. I have spoken to countless TCs who also say that the AP was one sided and gave too much to GCs so I think the word is compromise. It is not the place of GCs or TCs to put the case of other peoples of the island if they are not doing it for themselves so claiming some sort of moral issue is just misplaced propaganda.

You and your countless TC friends are right Zan. You should speak with them more often. Indeed the Anan Plan was offering the GCs too much, without them giving ANYTHIN be it town or village. Tell me is that fair? They could at least give you Ayia Napa. I totally agree, compromise is needed.