Cyprus-Forum.com

[Maximus]

You're starting to get into the Conspiracy Theory realm Max.

Sorry but I don't see it. Why on earth would Greece be the target of these Economic Hitmen and not some other country that has a lot more to offer because Greece never really had much to begin with.

But yes I agree that Finance is a brutal business but at the end of the day, no one put a gun to Greece and forced it to borrow too much. It could have taken drastic measures a decade ago, and if they did there would be no Greek crisis today but unfortunately no Greek Government wanted to make the hard decisions which would be very unpopular.

Basically, the Greek Governments did not do what they were elected to do.

And make no mistake about it. The Greek Crisis has been the best thing that has happened to Greece. It has been an excellent wake up call. I believe it was necessary and as a result Greece will eventually be better for it but it will take some time for things to get good or even reasonable even.

Ok, You could not have watched it that quickly and it shows in the questions you are asking me and the time it took you to respond. John Perkins explains it in the video.

You have found a dot with Greece though. Any dots for Cyprus or Ukraine?

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

You say that the US paid NGOs from 2004. Well that's fine, but where is your evidence that this was to promote instability in the country or a Coup?

They were promoting American values and even if only a fraction of this money went into the coffers of Svoboda and the Right Sector then, given that these are both organisations that revere Banderas who was an out-and-out Nazi and they wear Nazi symbols, did nobody check out their CV’s before Nuland decided to put them into power? So, to think that Obama/Kerry etc did not know who the money went to and the reputation of the recipients of that aid, would be bit too naive

.
........ the US can't be blamed for every single Coup that occurs around the globe

.
Maybe just most of them? There is lots of proof from Iran in the 50’s up to events in Ukraine. It is there if you look for it but whether you accept what you read or not is your decision. I tend to look at the credentials of the authors and how their version relates to the MSM version and others who think differently.

........... the local population and Russia DO NOT have the right to secede from the defined State that is Ukraine.

All people have the right to self determination .... the UN Charter says so. I see the situation that arose in Crimea as the people (not Russia) making that decision by a very large majority. Even before our time but check out the history of Hawaii, which was annexed by the US and they even apologised for the coup quiet recently .... of course they’re not going to give it back but they said sorry.

The Government of the Ukraine is NOT illegal irrespective of whether there was a Coup

.
An overthrow of an elected President in an armed coup IS illegal.

It is still the Government ............,

Not until it is elected, it can be an ‘interim’ government but not an elected and legitimate Government.

....because you (I) perceive something to be illegal........... then some action is justified by Russia.

No, as you say it is up to the UNSC to authorise any action. But this is a futile route as both the US and Russia can apply a veto. If you are an exceptional and indispensable people (as Obama recently declared) you can disregard International Law and the UN. In this case any action taken by Russia to protect their own National Security and/or the life and limb of their own kin would be justified. As Putin rightly said, these people went to bed Russian and woke up in the morning to find they were now Ukraine. Nobody asked them how they felt about it!

Their (US) empire is a different kind of empire........... Their empire is not one of Conquest.

It is the conquest that is different not the Empire. They are just as arrogant in their perception that they are somehow an exceptional race as the British were before them. Hitler said the same thing and it didn’t work for him either.

You often refer back to Cyprus and I think there is a clue there! During the British occupation when they tried to rule the Island they had to fight a war to do it. Why have all that hassle when you can get what you really want (in the Brits case ... the British Bases) by letting the locals have the rest and do a deal with the ‘Management’? Maybe after the fiasco’s in Iraq and Afghanistan, they realised that the American people were getting a bit sick of being perpetually at war and copying the British solution to their Cyprus problem seemed a good option. Because the US no longer fights its own Imperial Conquests, it gets others to do that, puts a puppet on the throne and the US corporations, Banks etc. move in and strip out what they want ..... and nobody says a dickie bird.

Which countries? Sure there has been some US meddling in certain situations and even the odd war, but write down all these scenarios and let's be very realistic about the extent of their meddling.

The US has over 800 bases in well over a 100 countries in all and US military bases in at least 63 countries. In contrast Russia has only two bases outside the Russian Federation and these are naval logistics support bases in Syria and Vietnam. The extent of US (CIA?) meddling is Global, their finger prints are on most of these coups and overthrow’s.

....... the US Century has been a good one compared to the old tyrants of the past.

I think there are a lot of people in a lot of countries that would disagree with you! Present day Iraq springs to mind! I’ll bet the Iraqi’s still wish they had that old tyrant Saddam in power today because the ‘liberation’ they got from US (and other NATO countries) has turned into rats s**t!!!! Now you have got ISIS Jihadists moving on Bagdad ....... maybe even with the same weapons that the US (via Libya) gave to the ‘moderate’ Islamists in Syria!

..... the fact is that the US has not permanently occupied anyone or altered their borders

.
They don’t have to and are not the slightest bit interested in Ukraine or Iran. Like they are doing (or trying to do) in Syria it is to get rid of non-compliant leaders/regimes and install ones that will play by their rules. The boundaries are immaterial to them ..... their hegemonic empire has no boundaries!

Also, it was Al Qaeda and the Taliban that declared war on America.

Are you referring to 9/11? That was all Saudi’s, neither the Taliban or Al-Qaida had anything to do with those events ..... that is why Osama Bin Ladin was never on the FBI ‘most wanted’ list for 9/11 because the FBI Director had no evidence to link ObL to the events. To this day there is no evidence to say who was actually responsible ........ it is all hypothesis.

The Internet has been a Godsend

.
If you have common sense it does provide a lot of information we never had access to before, which is why many countries are trying to control it. Knowledge is dangerous
.
Getting back to the video ......

..... they looked like Chaff Flare to me

Chaff flares are a very high and concentrated heat source and are brilliant white when they ignite. They are discharged to the side/rear not to the front. Pointless as heat seeking missiles follow the heat from the exhaust.

Anyway, I believe the video is genuine but of course it may have been an aircraft in a different location altogether but the CCTV shows something that came from what I can only assume to be the SU-25 down through the trees and into the building. I am going to assume until I see something that says otherwise that this is what happened. I still cannot get the heart breaking picture out of my mind of that poor lady with her legs blown off and covered in blood, looking up at the camera and then putting her head down again.

You don’t think they (Kiev) would do such a thing? Look at the very first part of the video ..... there is a guy there beating people to death after they landed when jumping from the burning Union building in Odessa. There is a whole series of videos on this atrocity and it is now know 270+ civilians were murdered by Right Sector thugs in that building and some of the videos are as horrifying as this one. An 8 month pregnant woman dead (and presumably raped?), stretched with a wire round her throat and her back over a desk. In one video you can hear her screaming for help before it all went quiet. A minute or so later a guy came to the window of this office at the same moment as the blue/yellow Ukraine flag appeared at the adjacent window to the cheers of the crowd below.

I am sorry I do not share your faith in these animals actually having any compassion at all, after all these are the same Ukrainians that operated the Nazi concentration camps and they were renowned for their cruelty.

[zan]

Where do Germany and France fit into this?

[Maximus]

Where do Germany and France fit into this?

Where did they come from first of all?

[Paphitis]

Being fascist or NAZI is neither here nor there. WW2 was a long time ago and the main protagonist was Germany. But I agree that some Ukrainians were especially cruel with respect to the extermination of Ukrainian Jews. It was downright criminal. You got no argument from me.

You miss my point that America can't be blamed for Coups within any country. It can't be blamed because it is not the US that instigated it. Put it this way, if the Turkish Military or Greek Military decide to have a Coup, there is nothing much the US or the CIA can do about it. It would be the Turkish or Greek Military that instigates it, therefore it is those countries that are ultimately responsible. But yes, sometimes the US will support some Coups but not others.

Also, people do not have the right to self determination. This is such a dangerous idea which is just not valid. For instance, do you think the French Canadians have a right to declare ENOSIS with France? Can a minority Group within a country, even if they do constitute a majority in a certain district be allowed self determination? I would have to disagree on that. Self Determination applies to situations such as Cypriots wanting self determination from the British Empire but not if those Cypriots wanted self determination in North London because such a notion would be absolutely absurd.

As to a Coup being illegal, I would like to know which International Law stipulates this to warrant external meddling from Russia? There is none. Coups are generally anti constitutional and illegal but the Military is still a major institution within any country. Which Court is going to stand against the Military? When there is a Coup, then the Military is the Government and it is a legal entity. They are now legal, very legal. There is no International Law that states they are not. It might be constitutionally illegal since they were not elected or deposed another Government but sometimes in certain situations it could be necessary. For instance, how can a Military stand idle when they know that the Government is acting illegally by dissolving the countries borders as is the case in Ukraine.

I am afraid I would have to disagree with you about Russia needing to protect its National Security. Ukraine can never be considered a serious threat to Russia's Security. Also, it does not have the right to intervene militarily within the country. The Russian people were never in danger except for those that engaged in militant activities with Russia's support in order to achieve insurrection.

Unfortunately, Britain did fight a very dirty war against Cypriots and they had caused so much damage to the island and its people from the Divide and Rule they practiced which Cyprus has never been able to surpass. We see the results of this to this day. Cyprus is partitioned, illegally occupied and 180,000 Cypriots are unable to return to their homes. I do not see the US doing the same things as Britain, or at least it is rare. I don't see that they are anywhere near as arrogant as the British were. They do not bully many countries. Yes I am serious. of course there are some issues like Iran, and North Korea, but do you blame the Americans? I think most countries have a problem with North Korea for instance. As to anything else I really can't think of any other situation where the US is building an empire or repressing an entire people. Afghanistan is not valid in my view because it was a war which I believe was inevitable and the US had to respond to that no matter what.

Yes I am talking about 9/11. That was a direct attack on American soil. The Taliban had an opportunity (ultimatum) to hand over those responsible which they were protecting or there would be dire consequences. America did invade but it did not repress the Afghani people in the process and there was never any intention to fully occupy the country long term. America on this occasion was hell bent on regime change. A legitimate war. If Ukraine attacked Russia on its soil, then I could easily justify Russian intervention in similar vein using this very same logic, however Ukraine didn't do this and could never even be deemed a serious threat.

Why don't you ask some Iraqis if they prefer Saddam Hussein? better still ask any Afghani if they want to see the return of the Taliban.

There are literally dozens of "non compliant" leaders around the world. There is not much the US can do about it and there probably is no desire to do anything about it. Really, there are a few bug bears - Iran, North Korea for instance. The US really had nothing much to do with the Syrian Crisis. It was one of those things which they had no control over.

I am also sad that any civilian is killed and I am sure there were quite a few, not just from the Ukrainian Military action against the insurgency, but also from the Russian sponsored militias. Unfortunately, there is nothing much that can be done about that other than try to minimize collateral damage. Ukraine certainly has a right to defend itself against the Russian Sponsored insurgents. This is a direct attack on their sovereignty. The Russians do not have the right to meddle in Ukraine whether there is a Coup or not.

Whatever those projectiles were, they certainly were no rockets, or missiles. I had a look at the video earlier, and it might be the case that they did not come from the aircraft flying overhead. Still does not stop the Russian propaganda machine to use it in their propaganda film.

[zan]

Where do Germany and France fit into this?

Where did they come from first of all?

Then is there a change of status after the phone hacking? Don't get me wrong, I believe in some of the accusations but am finding it difficult to explain the developed worlds presence and role. Most conspiracies are selective and narrow. When you expand the theory it breaks down. I believe the US have started the Syrian war and are instrumental in trying to dislodge Erdogan ( who I don't like). I also believe they have used Greece and "RoC" to force a deal, who helped by cooking the books. I can remember the first pictures of the long line of Iraqi soldiers and tanks massacred (160,00 men) that disappeared from the news the very next day.

[Maximus]

You miss my point that America can't be blamed for Coups within any country. It can't be blamed because it is not the US that instigated it. Put it this way, if the Turkish Military or Greek Military decide to have a Coup, there is nothing much the US or the CIA can do about it. It would be the Turkish or Greek Military that instigates it, therefore it is those countries that are ultimately responsible. But yes, sometimes the US will support some Coups but not others.

So your point and the basis of your argument is that they cant be blamed because it is not the US that instigates these.

John Perkins, who has first hand experience of doing this says.

First he would be sent in (by who?) to try and bribe and corrupt leaders and state officials of target countries.
then, if the leader or state official cannot be corrupted, they (who is they?) will send in the Jackels (violent demonstrators? mercenaries? CIA agents?) to destabilaze a country, which could lead to a coup (note Cyprus and Ukraine) to usher in leaders who are corruptable and will form policy in their (who is they?) favor.
If this fails, then the military is sent in and the original state official is likely to be assassinated.

Who are we talking about?

[Paphitis]

You miss my point that America can't be blamed for Coups within any country. It can't be blamed because it is not the US that instigated it. Put it this way, if the Turkish Military or Greek Military decide to have a Coup, there is nothing much the US or the CIA can do about it. It would be the Turkish or Greek Military that instigates it, therefore it is those countries that are ultimately responsible. But yes, sometimes the US will support some Coups but not others.

So your point and the basis of your argument is that they cant be blamed because it is not the US that instigates these.

John Perkins, who has first hand experience of doing this says.

First he would be sent in (by who?) to try and bribe and corrupt leaders and state officials of target countries.
then, if the leader or state official cannot be corrupted, they (who is they?) will send in the Jackels (violent demonstrators? mercenaries? CIA agents?) to destabilaze a country, which could lead to a coup (note Cyprus and Ukraine) to usher in leaders who are corruptable and will form policy in their (who is they?) favor.
If this fails, then the military is sent in and the original state official is likely to be assassinated.

Who are we talking about?

Absolutely the US can't be blamed for any Coup. That is such a cop out. Coups will happen in some countries regardless.

The Americans might be opportunists from time to time and exploit some Coups for their benefit and interests, but no you can't blame Washington for the Greek Coup or any other Coup for that matter.

The only Coup that the US was directly involved with was Pinochet in Chile.

And sorry but i do not see any evidence of any bribes. You really do need to provide evidence.

[Maximus]

Where do Germany and France fit into this?

Where did they come from first of all?

Then is there a change of status after the phone hacking? Don't get me wrong, I believe in some of the accusations but am finding it difficult to explain the developed worlds presence and role. Most conspiracies are selective and narrow. When you expand the theory it breaks down. I believe the US have started the Syrian war and are instrumental in trying to dislodge Erdogan ( who I don't like). I also believe they have used Greece and "RoC" to force a deal, who helped by cooking the books. I can remember the first pictures of the long line of Iraqi soldiers and tanks massacred (160,00 men) that disappeared from the news the very next day.

yes, the phone hacking is another layer of mistrust amongst allies.

The US are involved in Syria but so too is Turkey and some other countries but I do not think the US is actually involved in trying to dislodge Erdogan because he is very corrupt and highly corruptible which means he is a useful tool to serve the US's interests.

[Maximus]

You miss my point that America can't be blamed for Coups within any country. It can't be blamed because it is not the US that instigated it. Put it this way, if the Turkish Military or Greek Military decide to have a Coup, there is nothing much the US or the CIA can do about it. It would be the Turkish or Greek Military that instigates it, therefore it is those countries that are ultimately responsible. But yes, sometimes the US will support some Coups but not others.

So your point and the basis of your argument is that they cant be blamed because it is not the US that instigates these.

John Perkins, who has first hand experience of doing this says.

First he would be sent in (by who?) to try and bribe and corrupt leaders and state officials of target countries.
then, if the leader or state official cannot be corrupted, they (who is they?) will send in the Jackels (violent demonstrators? mercenaries? CIA agents?) to destabilaze a country, which could lead to a coup (note Cyprus and Ukraine) to usher in leaders who are corruptable and will form policy in their (who is they?) favor.
If this fails, then the military is sent in and the original state official is likely to be assassinated.

Who are we talking about?

Absolutely the US can't be blamed for any Coup. That is such a cop out. Coups will happen in some countries regardless.

The Americans might be opportunists from time to time and exploit some Coups for their benefit and interests, but no you can't blame Washington for the Greek Coup or any other Coup for that matter.

The only Coup that the US was directly involved with was Pinochet in Chile.

And sorry but i do not see any evidence of any bribes. You really do need to provide evidence.

Did you take the Blue pill instead? your mind is like a steel trap, closed.

Are the Greeks corrupt in your opinion?

Is Greece, as well as Cyprus and Ukraine in debt? how much?

How much money did Cyprus take before declaring bankruptcy and obtaining a rescue package that she also had to pay for? How did they get this money? why?