Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

if you are expecting huge swathes of people to be moved yert again, it just goes to show how stupid you people are. it aint gona happen not after 50 years and not for the third time.

iyi gunner my swine friends.

Then they are going to pay rent to their GCs property owners at the going rate. No more free lunch or rent free stay. Let see how many will stay!

[Jerry]

if you are expecting huge swathes of people to be moved yert again, it just goes to show how stupid you people are. it aint gona happen not after 50 years and not for the third time.

iyi gunner my swine friends.

Do you really think your puppet master cares how much territory is returned? So long as he has a viable foothold on Cyprus he isn't interested in what you think, 18% will do nicely. The state in the north will be recognised in one form or another, Turkey will keep buying cheap US arms, it will profit from local hydrocarbon resources and one day it will be allowed to join the EU.

[Maximus]

if you are expecting huge swathes of people to be moved yert again, it just goes to show how stupid you people are. it aint gona happen not after 50 years and not for the third time.

iyi gunner my swine friends.

Do you really think your puppet master cares how much territory is returned? So long as he has a viable foothold on Cyprus he isn't interested in what you think, 18% will do nicely. The state in the north will be recognised in one form or another, Turkey will keep buying cheap US arms, it will profit from local hydrocarbon resources and one day it will be allowed to join the EU.

Don't give them anything, especially for the wrong reasons.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyro,

I would love to agree with you about the Eroglu era becoming a historic relic. Unfortunately I see the linkage between territory and governance system projected by the TC negotiator. In the past and also now, as we saw just last week when the TC negotiator presented the situation once again as part of the give and take. In other words the more we give on governance and veer to confederation the more territory they will relinquish.

We need to cut this bullshit. First we deal with the territory, applying different principles and not use it as a counterbalance to the constitutional setup. Then, after we settle the territory, we can decide the governance system, which in my opinion will not last long anyway. The modern equivalent of the Bozkur Bayrak will see to it and we will have a deadlock on some issue or other pretty soon, EU or no EU. The desires of the TCs are of doubtful effectiveness, in my opinion. I am willing to be surprised and see evidence that they are no longer willing to be treated like colonials.

And naturally the GC part must retain substantive recognition that no matter what happens it is the successor and continuation of the RoC.

First of all you have to take into account how the new state will be formed Nikitas. The joint communique is very clear on this. ALL POWERS will derive from the Constitution of the Federal State. It will be nothing even near to what the Anan Plan was.
The new state will be factually a continuation of the RoC, be it a member of the EU all International bodies, and with all current obligations.
It will simply change name and internal structure but still internationally continue to be the RoC with a different name!

The matter of territory was important in the past because -i would agree with you-they viewed the solution as a stepping stone for a)De-recognition of the RoC b)Splitting up and either getting separate recognition or joining Turkey.
At this stage the matter of territory is important to them but not for the same reasons. The reason now is they want to be as signifigant as possible in economic power compared to the other Fed part. Because THEY KNOW that the one who does the talking today is MONEY and nothing else.

I honestly don't share your fears for an eventual split. But let's for the purpose of an argument consider this possibility.
a)What would cause the split? What sort of deadlock?? There can be no deadlock anywhere else other that within the Central Fed State.
But the Central Fed State will have specific powers. Which of it's specific powers will freeze? You have to be specific here to be able to discuss this. And why should they freeze, there will always be the supreme court...
b)What will happen to the "turkish" part that will brake away? Stay within the EU or be out of it? If out of it would it ever get a chance to get recognized,or join Turkey? Would it brake away carrying with it rights/agreements/contracts for hydrocarbons that would be currently in the hands of the Central Fed State?

I am sorry my friend, but you are over-estimating the abilities of the Soysals & Denktash idiots, and you are under-estimating the genuine will of the Kibrisli masses.

[boulio]

Pyro,

I would love to agree with you about the Eroglu era becoming a historic relic. Unfortunately I see the linkage between territory and governance system projected by the TC negotiator. In the past and also now, as we saw just last week when the TC negotiator presented the situation once again as part of the give and take. In other words the more we give on governance and veer to confederation the more territory they will relinquish.

We need to cut this bullshit. First we deal with the territory, applying different principles and not use it as a counterbalance to the constitutional setup. Then, after we settle the territory, we can decide the governance system, which in my opinion will not last long anyway. The modern equivalent of the Bozkur Bayrak will see to it and we will have a deadlock on some issue or other pretty soon, EU or no EU. The desires of the TCs are of doubtful effectiveness, in my opinion. I am willing to be surprised and see evidence that they are no longer willing to be treated like colonials.

And naturally the GC part must retain substantive recognition that no matter what happens it is the successor and continuation of the RoC.

First of all you have to take into account how the new state will be formed Nikitas. The joint communique is very clear on this. ALL POWERS will derive from the Constitution of the Federal State. It will be nothing even near to what the Anan Plan was.
The new state will be factually a continuation of the RoC, be it a member of the EU all International bodies, and with all current obligations.
It will simply change name and internal structure but still internationally continue to be the RoC with a different name!

The matter of territory was important in the past because -i would agree with you-they viewed the solution as a stepping stone for a)De-recognition of the RoC b)Splitting up and either getting separate recognition or joining Turkey.
At this stage the matter of territory is important to them but not for the same reasons. The reason now is they want to be as signifigant as possible in economic power compared to the other Fed part. Because THEY KNOW that the one who does the talking today is MONEY and nothing else.

I honestly don't share your fears for an eventual split. But let's for the purpose of an argument consider this possibility.
a)What would cause the split? What sort of deadlock?? There can be no deadlock anywhere else other that within the Central Fed State.
But the Central Fed State will have specific powers. Which of it's specific powers will freeze? You have to be specific here to be able to discuss this. And why should they freeze, there will always be the supreme court...
b)What will happen to the "turkish" part that will brake away? Stay within the EU or be out of it? If out of it would it ever get a chance to get recognized,or join Turkey? Would it brake away carrying with it rights/agreements/contracts for hydrocarbons that would be currently in the hands of the Central Fed State?

I am sorry my friend, but you are over-estimating the abilities of the Soysals & Denktash idiots, and you are under-estimating the genuine will of the Kibrisli masses.

Yes but if the north wants strict bizonality and very few gc to be returning with no political rights the only way this can be achieved is for the more land given back the less gc will be returning.its quite simple and kikapu had outlined it in his plan years back.Also the more towns given back the property issue gets less and less of a headache in a future solution.

[Lordo]

oh dear more delusional myopia from the charluis and the pretend gcs an all. i dont know if you swine realise but other than maras you are not getting anything back this time. where the hell has 18 percent come from, and who said it. and if you refuse it this time, you will not even get that back.

terkey does not want 18 percent she wants 100. wakey wakey.

[Pyrpolizer]

oh dear more delusional myopia from the charluis and the pretend gcs an all. i dont know if you swine realise but other than maras you are not getting anything back this time. where the hell has 18 percent come from, and who said it. and if you refuse it this time, you will not even get that back.

terkey does not want 18 percent she wants 100. wakey wakey.

then you can kiss solution and gas money goodbye lordo.

[Pyrpolizer]

Yes but if the north wants strict bizonality and very few gc to be returning with no political rights the only way this can be achieved is for the more land given back the less gc will be returning.its quite simple and kikapu had outlined it in his plan years back.Also the more towns given back the property issue gets less and less of a headache in a future solution.

It's not what they or we want. It's a negotiation process.
Strict bizonality would mean restriction of freedom of movement and settlement which is totally against EU norms and unacceptable by the Kypreoi.
I don't really see a problem in returning ANY lands under GC administration.Even if those lands or towns are currently inhabited by Kibrislis.
In fact I foresee such a move especially concerning the Morfou area.
In theory the Kypreoi should demand 18% land and coast line and the TCs should (like what Eroglu says) return nothing except Varoshia.
If both sides stick to their own demands then there will be no solution, as simple as that.

NB. 1) It is a myth that the resettlement costs will be undertaken by the respective Fed States. The costs will be undertaken by the Fed State.So either the area in question is under GC administration or TC administration it doesn;t matter.
2)Only those whose earnings are below poverty level will be resettled by the State. The rest will be required to resettle on their own expense,or just stay there and pay rent.
2a)There will be resettlement not only in areas to be returned but also within the Fed states themselves.
3)Don't confuse the expected solution with the Anan Plan. That was a partition plan that;s why vast areas needed of be cleared to be returned.
4)The major criteria for land percentages will be viability. And mind you the TC Fed state will alwaysstruggle to survive and pay it's own expenses to this silly and costly Fed Government.
5)If anything I forsee the Kibrisllis asking for a Unitary state pretty soon rather than trying to split.

[Nikitas]

My take on the territory and the possible outcome derives from statements made in the recent past by Eroglu, and he is one of the key players in this process.

His was the idea of a joint corporation that would manage TC property in the south. There went the assumption that there would be an exchange of properties, that GC displaced persons would be given equivalent land from TC land in the south. No sir! TCs would retain the GC land they got in the north while their relinquished property in the south would be managed for the "benefit of all Cypriots" by the joint corporation. With this kind of mindset they face the territorial settlement as well.

Having minorities of either community living in the territory of the "other" is asking for trouble. We have seen how the minority issue was exploited and used in Cyprus and how it is being used in Greece. We saw the schools issue in Limassol over returnees who moved there voluntarily. Nothing goes unexploited by Turkey and if they want to create a deadlock they will.

I do not usually resort to popular wisdom but the English adage "goode fences make good neighbours" is useful in our case.

[Pyrpolizer]

Eroglu , Denktash, Soysal are all from the same school Nikitas.
But.... as we know he has already been sided by the negotiator.

I really can't comment on anything without seeing the final solution, which of course may never come.
All want to say is that any solution would contain risks for both sides.
If we don't want to take risks we should better go for agreed partition.