Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

Enosis was supported by the vast majority of Cypriots and that is more than enough.

Enosis was supported only by those in Cyprus who considered themselves Greek. To try and claim that it was a legitimate expression of the free will of a 'Cypriot people' is just nonsense. For such a thing to be an expression of the legitimate will of a Cypriot people, that included TC Cypriots then there had to be some greater unifying element that made Cypriots a people. Just that we all resided on the island is NOT sufficient given that what you sought explicitly tried to destroy the only thing that could have unified us, given that we did not share language or religion. Your interpretation of what the purpose and intent of the right to self determination is and indeed even what the intent and purpose of democracy is, is a total perversion of their actual intent and purpose. To you self determination and democracy mean you have the right to impose on others, that you yourself choose to define and classify as other than you, anything you want with no regard for their wishes and wants. That is not the purpose or intent of the right to self determination nor is it the intent or purpose on democracy. It is a total perversion of the very essence of the intent and purpose of this ideals.

The approval of every single individual or group was not required to make enosis legitimate and fair.

By choosing to want to be Greek and part of the Greek people, which was and is your right, you made TC, by definition, some other people to yourselves that also shared Cyprus as their homeland. That you then also sought to deny that TC, having been defined by yourselves as some 'other people' (not Greek) to GC, had the same rights as you did as a people and one different from you, based on the claim that we were all part of a unitary Cypriot people is where the problem starts and remains to this day.

You want to choose to be Greek and ruled from Greece, which is fine. You then however want to force me to be Greek and ruled by Greece in the name of a unitary Cypriot people. The very notion is crackpot, yet you continue to insist that it is a just and right and totally in compliance with the notion of the right to self determination.

Unfortunately the British Colonialists (and their American backers), who had (and continue to have) direct strategic interests in Cyprus, are members of the UN Security Council, and this is the sole reason why our just cause could not pass from the UN. Had Cyprus being a colony of Italy (like Rhodes), then enosis would have happened right after WWII (like Rhodes). The fact that enosis was not allowed has everything to do with the interests of the AngloAmericans and absolutely nothing with any rights of your minority.

That TC were not totally sacrificed to the political expediency of others by reasons of chronology, geography, history, demographics and ever shifting geo political power does not change the truth or plain logic of what I state above.

[Sotos]

You have ALWAYS been some OTHER people because we are the NATIVE people and you are foreign colonists who came to Cyprus the last few centuries and didn't assimilate. Just because the British took over for 70 years didn't turn you into natives. Many colonies changed hands from one colonizer to another. This doesn't turn previous colonizers into natives. The whole self-termination ideal was created to free people like us from foreign rule like the one you imposed on us. If the natives had to take the approval of the colonist minorities then the whole concept of self-determination would be self defeating. So it is you and not Piratis the one who has total perversion of the very essence of the intent and purpose of this ideal.

[Maximus]

There is a far greater chance sharia law could be implemented in Turkey and the "TRNC" or even in Cyprus if the TC's get their way.

Sharia law spawns from the Muslim faith anyway, not the Greeks, or Greece or Enosis or from Greek Cypriots or Europe either.

[erolz66]

You have ALWAYS been some OTHER people because we are the NATIVE people and you are foreign colonists who came to Cyprus the last few centuries and didn't assimilate. Just because the British took over for 70 years didn't turn you into natives. Many colonies changed hands from one colonizer to another. This doesn't turn previous colonizers into natives. The whole self-termination ideal was created to free people like us from foreign rule like the one you imposed on us. If the natives had to take the approval of the colonist minorities then the whole concept of self-determination would be self defeating. So it is you and not Piratis the one who has total perversion of the very essence of the intent and purpose of this ideal.

What validly makes Cyprus our homeland just as much as it is your is 500 years + history of living there. Just as similar makes SA today the homeland of white SA's and America the valid homeland of European Americans and Australia the homeland of European Australians.

This 'idea' that GC somehow have greater rights as far as Cyprus is their homeland than TC have as far as it is theirs is just nonsense that only a fanatic like yourself could actually believe. The ANC does not believe that white SA's have no right to consider SA their homeland and that is despite the horrors of apartheid.

[Sotos]

You have ALWAYS been some OTHER people because we are the NATIVE people and you are foreign colonists who came to Cyprus the last few centuries and didn't assimilate. Just because the British took over for 70 years didn't turn you into natives. Many colonies changed hands from one colonizer to another. This doesn't turn previous colonizers into natives. The whole self-termination ideal was created to free people like us from foreign rule like the one you imposed on us. If the natives had to take the approval of the colonist minorities then the whole concept of self-determination would be self defeating. So it is you and not Piratis the one who has total perversion of the very essence of the intent and purpose of this ideal.

What validly makes Cyprus our homeland just as much as it is your is 500 years + history of living there. Just as similar makes SA today the homeland of white SA's and America the valid homeland of European Americans and Australia the homeland of European Australians.

This 'idea' that GC somehow have greater rights as far as Cyprus is their homeland than TC have as far as it is theirs is just nonsense that only a fanatic like yourself could actually believe. The ANC does not believe that white SA's have no right to consider SA their homeland and that is despite the horrors of apartheid.

What I said is that you are not NATIVE... just like white people in Africa or Europeans in Australia and America are also NOT native. And these people are equals as individuals... not as groups, and they get ONE VOTE each like everybody else. Their separate approval is NOT required... for ANYTHING... EVER!! If they don't like the choices of the majority then they are free to leave ... which is what many whites did in SA after the end of apartheid. And one more thing ... Turks do not have "500 years + history" in Cyprus

[erolz66]

What I said is that you are not NATIVE... just like white people in Africa or Europeans in Australia and America are also NOT native. And these people are equals as individuals... not as groups, and they get ONE VOTE each like everybody else. Their separate approval is NOT required... for ANYTHING... EVER!! If they don't like the choices of the majority then they are free to leave ... which is what many whites did in SA after the end of apartheid. And one more thing ... Turks do not have "500 years + history" in Cyprus

If the 'natives' of SA were to pursue an independence for themselves as a people that instead of including white SA in it sought to actually exclude them, defining white SA as not part of this SA people but some other people, then indeed white SA would have a valid right to separate and equal self determination in their own (shared) homeland. Of course the leaders of the ANC were too wise and had too much humanity to ever contemplate such a thing, despite all they suffered under apartheid individually and communally, unlike the leaders of the GC in the 50's and 60's and it would seem still some GC today.

Even ignoring the absurd claim that GC are 'native' to Cyprus, as if before the arrival of the Greek language and culture in Cyprus there were no people in Cyprus with no language and no culture of their own that was not Greek, being 'native' does not define if an geographical location is your homeland or not. Generation after generation after generation of connection with the soil and sea and sky and mountains and flora and fauna is what makes a geographical area ones homeland. So of course 'native' people have this connection but so too can and do 'non native' people. We shared and share a homeland equally. We could have shared the right to 'determine our own futures' in this shared homeland as Cypriots together expect for the fact that you chose to pursue a future that defined you as Greeks and sought rule of Cyprus from and By Greeks and not Cypriots and then having done so sought to force that on us against our will in the name of the unitary Cypriot people that you were trying to deny existed and destroy.

[Sotos]

You are talking nonsense as usual. So if the native people of SA decided to unite with some neighboring country the whites would be entitled to re-take part of South Africa for themselves? :roll::roll: Can you give me an example of such thing happening and being legit? Here is a counter example:

The Zanzibar Revolution occurred in 1964 and led to the overthrow of the Sultan of Zanzibar and his mainly Arab government by local African revolutionaries. Zanzibar was an ethnically diverse state consisting of a number of islands off the east coast of Tanganyika which had been granted independence by Britain in 1963. In a series of parliamentary elections after independence, the Arab minority succeeded in retaining the hold on power it had inherited from Zanzibar's former existence as an overseas territory of Oman. Frustrated by under-representation in Parliament despite winning 54% of the vote in the July 1963 election, the mainly African Afro-Shirazi Party (ASP) allied itself with the left-wing Umma Party, and early on the morning of 12 January 1964 ASP member John Okello mobilised around 600–800 revolutionaries on the main island of Unguja (Zanzibar Island). Having overrun the country's police force and appropriated their weaponry, the insurgents proceeded to Zanzibar Town where they overthrew the Sultan and his government. Reprisals against Arab and South Asian civilians on the island followed; the resulting death toll is disputed, with estimates ranging from several hundred to 20,000. The moderate ASP leader Abeid Karume became the country's new president and head of state, and positions of power were granted to Umma party members.

The new government's apparent communist ties concerned Western governments. As Zanzibar lay within the British sphere of influence, the British government drew up a number of intervention plans. However, the feared communist government never materialised, and because British and United States citizens were successfully evacuated these plans were not put into effect. Meanwhile, the communist bloc powers of China, East Germany and the Soviet Union established friendly relations with the new government by recognising the country and sending advisors. Karume succeeded in negotiating a merger of Zanzibar with Tanganyika to form the new nation of Tanzania; an act judged by contemporary media to be an attempt to prevent communist subversion of Zanzibar. The revolution ended 200 years of Arab dominance in Zanzibar, and is commemorated on the island each year with anniversary celebrations and a public holiday.

I can assure you that the Arab minority in Zanzibar, or any such minority in any country can NEVER have a self-determination right NO MATTER WHAT.... even in the extreme case above.

[Get Real!]

What I said is that you are not NATIVE...

Well neither are you if we're to believe your story that your ancestors arrived here at around 1,000BC in wooden boats and eliminated Cypriots, kinda like the Vikings occupied Greenland etc.

Once again, what you’re saying to Erol is that you are a “better” foreigner than him!

It doesn’t look like you realize that your Greek fable is what’s destroying your case every time!

It’s what encouraged Turkey to invade once you had convinced them that you were foreigners too!

If you commence a campaign in your neighborhood that the house you are living in is not actually yours because you ejected the legal owner and occupied it some years ago… well sooner or later some other desperate or greedy guy is gonna eject you from this “available” house and call it his own!

Your attitude made Cyprus appear “available” and up for grabs!

[Piratis]

If the 'natives' of SA were to pursue an independence for themselves as a people that instead of including white SA in it sought to actually exclude them, defining white SA as not part of this SA people but some other people, then indeed white SA would have a valid right to separate and equal self determination in their own (shared) homeland.

And that is the case because you say so? I am sorry, but this is just a baseless assumption of yours which is not true.

The white minority in SA does not have the right to determine the destiny of any part of South Africa anymore, and this is final with no exceptions.

[Piratis]

What I said is that you are not NATIVE...

Well neither are you if we're to believe your story that your ancestors arrived here at around 1,000BC in wooden boats and eliminated Cypriots, kinda like the Vikings occupied Greenland etc.

Once again, what you’re saying to Erol is that you are a “better” foreigner than him!

It doesn’t look like you realize that your Greek fable is what’s destroying your case every time!

It’s what encouraged Turkey to invade once you had convinced them that you were foreigners too!

If you commence a campaign in your neighborhood that the house you are living in is not actually yours because you ejected the legal owner and occupied it some years ago… well sooner or later some other desperate or greedy guy is gonna eject you from this “available” house and call it his own!

Your attitude made Cyprus appear “available” and up for grabs!

Cyprus was part of the Greek civilization from the very beginning of this civilization. In Cyprus the Greek ethnicity has existed for longer time than most other ethnic groups existed in their current territories.