Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

As it's coming up to Be Kind to Dumb Prats Week, let's make it really, really simple for Dumb Prats, shall we Erol. ...???

In a thread with the headline " Eroglu is an - "Obstacle to Peace" "

... and we'll put it in nice bold and big for them, lest their eyesight is as poor as their thinking power.

Eroglu is an - "Obstacle to Peace"

Got it...??? Statement fixed in all brains...??? Now, shall we concentrate and stop prattling on about Big Mak, Anan, TPaP, the Archangel Gabriel etc etc. and answer the very simple question...

You agree with Mavroyannis...???

[erolz66]

Eroglu is an - "Obstacle to Peace"

Oh poor Billy boy o. You do realise that no matter how large and bold you make the text it does not make in any more or less real or true ?

You want my view on if the assertion that Ergolu is an obstacle to peace or not ? Even though you have had it already ? Well as it is apparently be kind to dumb prats week I will try and make it as simple for you as I can and resist the temptation to use the bold and large type text that seems to impress you.

Eroglu is an obstacle to peace, yes, in exactly the same way as someone who insists on a ''joint declaration" before even starting negotiations that specifically states that all parties commit to avoid blame games then turns around and plays the blame game. I am sorry that saying "Do not think for one minute that I think 'our' politicians and leaders are any better than yours. I do not. I think they are both as bad and useless as each other" was not clear enough for you. Maybe I should have used bold and 150 point text ?

So try and concentrate and stop prattling and answer me this, totally 'on topic' question - do you think having committed in a declaration you demanded as necessary to even start talks, to not play the blame game, then going and playing the blame game in the press is (and to make it simple for you I have made it multiple choice)

a - courageous
b - an obstacle to peace

What do you think billy willy boy o ??? What do you think serious grown up diplomats in the UN, US, EU and elsewhere think ? Courageous or obstacle to peace ?

As I have already said there are the sane who see this statement from Mayonaise for exactly what it is, nothing more than the futile 'business as usual' pointless posturing that has got us no where for the last 40 years and then there is you Billy williy idilly dee o.

[bill cobbett]

Eroglu has been bad-mouthing the Joint Declaration for months and Erol... we heard not a squeak of protest from you.

We covered Eroglu's views at cyprus41978.html and at cyprus41752.html

What Mavroyannis has said is to say the obvious, to repeat what politicians in the Occupied Areas have also said, that Eroglu is an obstacle to peace. At no time has Mavroyannis criticised the Joint Dec.

Let's turn the question on its head, so to speak, shall we Erol...???

So, do you see Eroglu's way as the Way to Peace...???

[erolz66]

Let's turn the question on its head, so to speak, shall we Erol...???

How about you answer the question before turning it on it's head. How do you think the serious grown up diplomats in the UN,EU and US regard Mayonnaise's statement ? A - Courageous or B - An obstacle to peace ?

So, do you see Eroglu's way as the Way to Peace...???

I think Eroglu is a self serving politician without the desire, wit or courage to broker a peace deal interested in his own short term political career and pandering to his domestic power base. Which is EXACTLY how I see Prick A and Mayonnaise. I lament at the pettiness and ineffectiveness and self serving excuses for political leaders on BOTH sides. You on the other hand ONLY do so in regards to ours and ignore the realties of your own and as such are yourself in your own tiny and insignificant way, an 'obstacle to peace'.

As far as there are differences between your no hopers and ours, when yours was elected to power I actually had some hope he might be different, only to have such hope totally destroyed between then and now, where as with ours I never harboured much hope in the first place. At least there is some remote hope that our ineffectual no hoper can be influenced and pushed by Turkey, where as with your .... But other than that you could pretty much switch them around at will given how similar they are in practice and reality.

[boulio]

Erolz you seem like centered tc ,what on a whole can you tell us what the average tc would accept as a solution.basically can you give me a outline of what you or again any average tc sees as a solution in a federal model.maybe the 7 to eight chapters that the negotiators are going to be discussing in the give and take part of negotiations starting May 6.ie governance,properties,territory,settlers etc etc.

[repulsewarrior]

Eroglu of "trnc" - "Obstacle to Peace"

Not many would disagree with that very candid view from one of the main negotiators in the settlement talks, Mr Mavroyannis.

"... "If Dervis Eroglu is re-elected, then the situation will remain the same. But if someone from the opposition replaces him, that would be better, as he could be more constructive” - Mavroyannis

" GREEK CYPRIOT CYPRUS " TALKS negotiator Andreas Mavroyiannis has taken a courageous step in passing comment on the internal politics of the break-away "Turkish Cypriot" ‘state’, by suggesting their leader is not the man to facilitate a peace deal.

http://famagusta-gazette.com/dervis-ero ... 243-69.htm

thats been the story for 40 years, they just keep repeating it..what difference does Eroglueee make in the whole scheme of things?....the only thing this says is that no solution is possible. just a waste of time

frankly, Eroglu is as much an obstacle, when he continues to insist that a solution can be found in 3 months, etc., the blame game is both ways.

...erolz you may recall that Denktash for 35 years was sited by every SGUN as the person who singlehandedly delayed any resolution of the Problem.

it is not that no solution is possible, but it looks like there will be no solution at this time.

[erolz66]

frankly, Eroglu is as much an obstacle, when he continues to insist that a solution can be found in 3 months, etc., the blame game is both ways.

As far as you are saying the failure to find a solution to date is a failure of both sides then we are in totally agreement. I just wish (if this is what you are saying) that you had the courage to try and explain this to BillC (and preferably in language I can actually understand).

[erolz66]

Erolz you seem like centered tc ,what on a whole can you tell us what the average tc would accept as a solution.basically can you give me a outline of what you or again any average tc sees as a solution in a federal model.maybe the 7 to eight chapters that the negotiators are going to be discussing in the give and take part of negotiations starting May 6.ie governance,properties,territory,settlers etc etc.

I am tired Buolio. Bone weary tired and not because it is 6.50am and I have not slept yet. I am tired of 10 years on this forum and others like it. After 10 years I have come to the conclusion that fora such as this one not only can not be a force for reconciliation and mutual understanding but it is in fact the opposite. Over the 10 years of my participation on this forum I have had long periods of leaving the forum, of being compelled to do so, as I can physically feel the insidious damage that the constant battering of posters like BillC, B25, GiG / Oracle Kurupertos and others do to my impressions of GC as a whole. No matter how much the logical conscious part of my mind keeps saying 'they are not representative of GC in general' at a deeper less rational level the constant tap tap tap of hatred and distain takes it toll. Of being told over and over that I am a Turk and thief and a thief because I am a Turk, that all I care about is personal gain at the expense of GC, because I am a Turk and that my community suffered nothing at the hands of GC that it did not deserve.

But I will once more try my best to answer your question in the honest spirit it has been asked. I answer not for TC but simply as a TC and an individual. My views as a TC are probably no more indicative of TC in general that say Sener Levant's are, but they remain mine none the less as I remain Cypriot and TC. Nothing I say here is anything I have not said on this forum before and often many times.

Bi Zonality

I do not need it at all. Nor do I particularly care for it personally.

Bi Communality

I am happy with a unitary state, with one citizenship, one international personality and straight forward one person one vote democracy with one exception. That exception being when GC vote one way (and TC another) not as a matter of personal choice regardless of their ethnic backgrounds but because of the ethnic background they have, then I require a separate and equal voice for the TC community vs the GC one. This is the only time I require any community based rights or powers. That's it. I do not require 'quotas' for positions be they in government, police or otherwise I am generally flexible to any number of proposed possible solutions re bi communality but for me the 'litmus test' of any proposal remains the same. Namely would this proposed system have allowed the TC to resist the imposition of ENOSIS on them in their own shared homeland against their collective will or not. If I believe it would have then it is acceptable as a solution to me and if not then it is not. I dream of a future where such communal based rights and powers are never invoked because we never pursue goals and objectives for our shared homeland that are the desires of one community alone and pay no regard to the desires of the other but given the history and where we are today this is what I require.

I do have to say that the degree of 'risk' in any proposed settlement I am willing to accept, is directly related to how much I believe that GC on the whole understand and accept that the way historically their leaderships and by extension their community attempted to impose ENOSIS on TC against their will was in fact wrong and that TC have and had a right to determine their own futures in their own shared homeland, equal to that of the GC community if the GC community choose to pursue objectives that place their 'Greekness' ahead of our shared 'Cypriotness'. Or to put it another way as far as I believe that majority view of GC as a whole is akin to those of the likes Loucas Charalambous (excuse my spelling) and Bannaiot I am personally prepared to accept much risk in pursuit of the goal of Cypriot unity. Conversely as far as I believe that the views of the likes of B25, GiG, BillC et al are representative of the general view of GC as a whole the level of risk I am prepared to accept reduces massively. Sadly I do have to say I think we may be generations away yet from the former being the case but I would loved to be proved wrong about that.

[cont]

[erolz66]

Guarantees

I do not require guarantees the relate to the physical safety of TC from GC attack internally in Cyprus. So no separate police forces, no motherland troops stationed in Cyprus post settlement nothing of that kind. This is a risk and I say this as someone who did not live through the period 64-74 in Cyprus as a TC. It is a risk but one I am willing to countenance based partly on it being 2014 and not 1964 and the world has changed and partly on the basis that we resisted assault before and if necessary we will do so again. What I do require however is some kind of guarantee that what is agreed in a settlement is honoured by all parties. I imagine something like an agreed external court, be an existing one like the UN Court of Justice or ECHR or some special court that can be called upon if necessary. What is more I want it written into the agreement beforehand what happens if the court rules that the GC community has actively and illegally sought to abrogate or renege on the agreement made, which would be recognition of a secessionist TC entity as a state within its own right complete we pre defined borders. So I would want this agreed and signed not just by the two communities, not just by them and Greece , Turkey and the UK but also by the US and UK and other permanent members of the security council along with the EU. In return all said parties will also sign binding agreements that under no circumstances other than a ruling by the designated court against the GC community will they ever recognised a TC secessionist entity in Cyprus. This way GC will know up front if they try and abrogate or renege on the settlement agreement and the agreed independent court finds them guilty of this then Cyprus will be divided into two separate legally recognised states. Similarly the TC community will know up front that no matter how they might try and undermine the agreement and show it as unworkable in order to seek separation, they will NEVER be able to establish a recognised separate state in Cyprus without a ruling from the agreed court.

[cont]

[erolz66]

Land Settlement

I believe in settling land issues there should be an acceptance that it is the historic failure of both communities that has led to the situation we have today and that both communities should bear some of the 'pain' of a settlement of land issues in terms of not necessarily getting a preferred option of redress (be it return or compensation or exchange) but being obliged to take a secondary form of redress. That there should be some sort of agreed tribunal that assesses cases on an individual basis working on the underlying principle of minimising any 'new pain' caused by a settlement. Under such a system in some cases TC will be obliged to take a form or redress that is not their preferred one and others they will and likewise GC and likewise non Cypriots too, all based on what in the view of the tribunal leads to the least 'new pain' for the parties in a given case. In terms of financing such settlements and recognising that exchange alone leaves a monetary shortfall on the TC side I would seek to make up this shortfall from the following. 1) Land made available as part of the peace dividend - principally land currently used for military bases (including large swathes of the SBA's land offered by the UK). 2 Increased value in land in the North as a result of the peace dividend, So for example if I have land in the North that was originally bought by me at price that reflected it had 'dispute title' and the tribunal working on the principle of 'least new harm' decides that I should become the legal owner of this land and the pre 74 owner is obliged to accept compensation (monetary or exchange) as their redress, the increase in this lands value should not accrue to but should be 'recoverable' by said tribunal in order to fund other settlements. So a % figure would be set, say of 30% in such a scenario. I could then seek to pay this 30% up front to the tribunal based on property value at that time or defer it to if and when I or my heirs sell the property and pay it as a one of sales tax at that timed based on the value of the property then.

[cont]