Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Selam,bg_turk,

For the TRNC to deserve recognition they need to do more than respect the rights of the minorities.They have to learn to govern themselves,protect their borders,have a viable economy based on real industry and commerce or farming or whatever,be nobody's dumping ground of surplus migrants,and be able to provide their citizens with basics like electricity,water,shelter,functioning health system,enough roads for their cars etc etc.How on earth will they manage to do all that while they are spoon fed by Turkey and have 40,000 Turkish soldiers on their land telling them when to breath, when to cough,when and how to open their border gates,when and how to vote???

Birkibrisli,

so you trust the RoC to become a viable, fair and a democratic state, but you do not believe the TRNC is capable of that?

No,bg_turk,I do not believe TRNC can become all that given where they are now,and given who is in charge of Turkey at present.Turkey itself is not,and will never be,a fair and democratic state.Democracy and Turkish mentality don't go well together,I am afraid.I would be surprized if you didn't agree with that.

[bg_turk]

No,bg_turk,I do not believe TRNC can become all that given where they are now,and given who is in charge of Turkey at present.Turkey itself is not,and will never be,a fair and democratic state.Democracy and Turkish mentality don't go well together,I am afraid.I would be surprized if you didn't agree with that.

On what do you base such claims? On the human right record of Turkey, which at the moment is gradually improving. By the same logic based on the human rights record in greece one can infer that the greek mentality does not change either. In both cases such generalizations are wrong, and I would hope you would agree.

My mentality is turkish, and I would hope so is yours. Your generalization about the mentality of the whole turkish nation being "undemocratic" and "unchangable" is completely wrong, and completely outside the spirit of what you have argued before, where you have argued that you are willing to trust GCs because you think that human beings are capable of changing. From a person like yourself I would have never expected statemets like this from you. To believe that GCs are able to change, and Turkish people arent, is racist to say the least.

[Piratis]

On what do you base such claims? On the human right record of Turkey, which at the moment is gradually improving. By the same logic based on the human rights record in greece one can infer that the greek mentality does not change either.

That "one" is you and any other nationalist Turk. The rest can easily see that the human rights record of Greece, although not perfect, is hugely better than the one of Turkey.

To believe that GCs are able to change, and Turkish people arent

The GCs have democracy and they can change. In Turkey everything is controlled by the army, democracy does not exist. Even if the Turkish people could somehow change against the will of the army, it would need a full scale revolution to change the way that things work in Turkey. Do you see this happening?

Regarding your initial comment:

so you trust the RoC to become a viable, fair and a democratic state, but you do not believe the TRNC is capable of that?

"TRNC" and democracy are things incompatible. If democracy was allowed the "TRNC" could have never been declared.
The pseudo state of "TRNC" is created based on ethnic cleansing and violations of human rights. Such entity can never exist as a real state, let alone a fair and democratic one.

[Eric dayi]

Please don't be embarrassed,Zan.You can ask me anything you want.
The short answer to "am I really a Turk" is :no.I am a Cypriot of Turkish background.Both my parents were born in Cyprus to TC parents,though no doubt,given that I am from Paphos,there would certainly be some mixed blood down the line.

I don't have a hidden agenda,as far as I can tell.
My agenda is open.I want Cyprus to reunify in a way that will please the majority of Cypriots,be they TC or GC background.I believe this could only happen if we abandon our ethnic identities (or at least play it down) and forge a unique Cypriot nation.
To this end I will not hesitate to point out what I see(as a reasonably intelligent and sensitive human being) as obstacles to this course.
The number one obstacle is the presence of Turkish soldiers,and the existance of the TRNC.I said elsewhere that I think Turkey's intervention in 1974 was justified and lawful as one of the guarantors of the independence of the RoC.They should have stayed only as long as it took to get the TCs and GCs back together under the 1960 constitution,and go home reserving the fight to intervene again if something similar happened.I and most Cypriots would have been very grateful had that happened. But after all these years,and after lived more than 50 years on this earth,and having lived away from the heat of the conflict for some 35 years,I believe Turkey's interests are no longer those of the TCs.
Turkey is now following her own agenda (as they should) and using the TRNC only as a pawn,working towards the total assimilation of the TCs into the mainland culture.I believe our only chance of survival as ourselves is by abandoning the notion of Turkishness(which in practice means being falsely nationalistic and proud of a history that is no more glorifed that anybody else's history in the region).Being Turkish these days means having a siege mentality driven by a chauvenistic notion of cultural or racial supremecy.This is what I reject.I believe we can only be happy and at peace as a community if we acknowledge our essence as Cypriots,a unique culture and people who are comfortable with who they are.
In case you are wondering,I support the Turkish national team in football,I love Turkish music,I know a great deal about the Ottoman history without the false nationalistic jingoism.I love the Turkish language,have read most modern Turkish writers,and especially adore the richness of Ottoman Turkish(with all its Greek,Persian,Arabic,French,English and Balkan influences).Spiritually I am closest to Sufism with its emphasis on love,compassion and forgiveness,trust in your fellow human beings,and hope for a better world.
I hope this answers most of your questions,but please feel free to ask me whatever you like,to satisfy any other curiosity you might have about me.

Well Birkibrisli, I don't know about Zan but you certainly have answered my questions about yourself and your "agenda". Like Zan said, everyone has an agenda and you have made yours perfectly clear, perfectly.

From what I see (if you are a Turk) you are either ashamed to be a Turk or have been brainwashed by believing everything you hear about us Turks.

Please don't think that I am having a go at you, you can believe what ever you like but I feel sorry for anyone who wants to "abondon" his/her own nationlity for what ever reason. Even if you did, when people find outyour personal background they will still look at you for what you were born as and furthermore look at you as a "traitor" because you abondoned your own. They will look at you as and say that you hate yourself and to tell the truth that's how I see you after what you have said.

You can now be upset with me if you want to but deep inside your heart you know that I am telling the truth and you know that's how people will see you in the future.

[zan]

Piratis wrote

That "one" is you and any other nationalist Turk. The rest can easily see that the human rights record of Greece, although not perfect, is hugely better than the one of Turkey.

Are you just looking for better than or perfection. Turkey is improving day by day; we have nothing to be ashamed of because we are moving forward.

The GCs have democracy and they can change. In Turkey everything is controlled by the army, democracy does not exist. Even if the Turkish people could somehow change against the will of the army, it would need a full-scale revolution to change the way that things work in Turkey. Do you see this happening?

Where do you get all this from. In the 1970s the army quite rightly decided to act for the people and against corruption and the gangsters. They went in and destroyed the infrastructure and the buildings of organised crime. They then handed the country back to democracy and the newly elected government. As an army they did their duty to protect the country and its people. Where did you get the idea that they are still in charge?

"TRNC" and democracy are things incompatible. If democracy was allowed the "TRNC" could have never been declared.
The pseudo state of "TRNC" is created based on ethnic cleansing and violations of human rights. Such entity can never exist as a real state, let alone a fair and democratic one.

You are getting mixed up with democracy inside the state and the one outside. The TRNC was formed when talks broke down between the two sides after thirty or so years of RoC pig headedness in refusing the TCs their human rights. For you to try and turn the whole thing around is sheer desperation. When democracy has reached a pinnacle in the RoC then the whole world can begin to replicate it!!!!

[bg_turk]

That "one" is you and any other nationalist Turk.

I find it funny because just today in another forum I was called a bulgarianzied sell-out renegado. I live it to others to judge the merits of the rest of your post.

Besides I have repated many times that yes the TRNC and the RoC are not democratic in their current forms, but I believe that they can change. My vision for the future of Cyprus is that of two equal democratic state. Your is that of a single democratic state. I do not know why your vision is better than mine?

[zan]

That "one" is you and any other nationalist Turk.

I find it funny because just today in another forum I was called a bulgarianzied sell-out renegado. I live it to others to judge the merits of the rest of your post.

Besides I have repated many times that yes the TRNC and the RoC are not democratic in their current forms, but I believe that they can change. My vision for the future of Cyprus is that of two equal democratic state. Your is that of a single democratic state. I do not know why your vision is better than mine?

Did you not know bg_ that when its a GC idea its human rights but when its a TC idea its nationalism.

By the way wasn't Renegado the man who sang with Renata the song "Save your love my darling". You know, the fat man that thought he was an opera singer.

"Save your love my darling, save your love.
For summer nights with moon and stars above.
A summer love I long to bring you
A serenade I long to sing you
save your love for Roma and for me"

I never new how nationalistic that song really was untill I wrote it down.

Anyway, I'm off out now to see the new Harry Potter film with my children. First of all though we are off to have an Adana kebab with some real Turkish suzme yogurt and I might even treat myself to a plate of Humus and a glass of Efes bear.

[BirKibrisli]

No,bg_turk,I do not believe TRNC can become all that given where they are now,and given who is in charge of Turkey at present.Turkey itself is not,and will never be,a fair and democratic state.Democracy and Turkish mentality don't go well together,I am afraid.I would be surprized if you didn't agree with that.

On what do you base such claims? On the human right record of Turkey, which at the moment is gradually improving. By the same logic based on the human rights record in greece one can infer that the greek mentality does not change either. In both cases such generalizations are wrong, and I would hope you would agree.

My mentality is turkish, and I would hope so is yours. Your generalization about the mentality of the whole turkish nation being "undemocratic" and "unchangable" is completely wrong, and completely outside the spirit of what you have argued before, where you have argued that you are willing to trust GCs because you think that human beings are capable of changing. From a person like yourself I would have never expected statemets like this from you. To believe that GCs are able to change, and Turkish people arent, is racist to say the least.

bg_turk,
I agree that generalising is wrong,and so is stereotyping,but people do it all the time because they get really frustrated.I am really frustrated by this mentality that it is OK to do something wrong because the other side is doing something worse.Turks can ignore people's human rights,but it is okey because the Greeks are doing it too.Well,it is not all right.They are both wrong.Both should change their ways.I know I am harder on the Turks and TCs because I think it is easy and pointless to be hard on the"other".I expect them to be self critical and hard on themselves.
If they are not prepared to they are only fooling themselves,not being honest with themselves.That is their problem.I am not going to stop being critical of my side because the other side is not doing the same for their side.I hope you see the consistency in my logic.
When I say Turkish mentality is not compatible with democracy,I am saying that Turks are more comfortable to bow to authority whether it is political or military.There are of course exceptions but they only prove the rule.Generally speaking Turks are not comfortable with the notion of freedom of speech. If they don't like what you are saying they will try to stop you from saying it. The idea that people can say what they want,and you have every right to get up and argue against their ideas does not sit comfortable with most Turks.If you read my posts I never said turks are not able to change.Though it is probably fair to draw that meaning from my arguments.I am sorry that is what I believe.I believe that Cypriots,both Greek and Turkish,are more open to democratic principles and practices.Certainly as a result of our history in Cyprus.That is why I believe we are capable of learning from our mistakes and not repeating them in the future.Please,bg_turk,remember this: only people who love you and really want what is best for you will take the trouble to point out your shortcomings.Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind,and i know I am being cruel,and I ask you to please forgive me.

[BirKibrisli]

Eric Dayi:

From what I see (if you are a Turk) you are either ashamed to be a Turk or have been brainwashed by believing everything you hear about us Turks.

Please don't think that I am having a go at you, you can believe what ever you like but I feel sorry for anyone who wants to "abondon" his/her own nationlity for what ever reason. Even if you did, when people find outyour personal background they will still look at you for what you were born as and furthermore look at you as a "traitor" because you abondoned your own. They will look at you as and say that you hate yourself and to tell the truth that's how I see you after what you have said.

Eric,I will ask you to please read my reply to bg_turk above.
You are having a go at me but you are perfectly entitled to do it.
I say things that hurt you deeply.I wonder if you realise what I say hurts me too.And drains me emotionally.I will just say this:I am not abandoning
my own nationality,I am trying to find it.I don't know about you,but I was born in Cyprus.My nation is the Cypriot nation.The one that does not exist because our ethnic origins(Turkishness and Greekness)have gotten in the way.If that makes me a traitor to Turkey i will be very surprised.You cannot betray a country that is not your own.

[zan]

Australia seems not only to be a long way away but isolated from the modern world. Turkey is changing fast along with its people from Turkey and from Cyprus. Groups are forming from the educated young that are more than capable of fighting their corner. You should get out there Birkibrisli and see for yourself. There is no need to turn your back on your Greekness, just be happy for people that are doing well for themselves. There is someway to go yet, but if you do know of a place where the search for a perfect and balanced society has ended, then please let me know.

Just being better at something’s and worse at others is not enough. I don’t see a concerted clamber of people heading for this fantastically developed Greece or RoC that seems to be perfect in some people’s eyes. Maybe they just haven't heard about it yet, eh?

It is wrong for someone who wants for his country and people not to have a better life not to mention its bad points but it is worse for that same person to sit on his arse and not join the people that are doing something about it. Armchair general, armchair critic, armchair hypocrite.