Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

VP

A unitary state is a state governed as one single unit in which the central government is supreme and any administrative divisions (subnational units) exercise only powers that their central government chooses to delegate. The great majority of states in the world have a unitary system of government.

taken straight from wikipedia, simple.

Do you understand this is not the model of state which is on offer? Its a two state solution under a federal joint governing body under a constitution which cannot unilaterally be changed? please get that into your head because its very frustrating when we are all saying oranges and you are saying bananas.

[erolz66]

So what do you want from the GC's, the 1960's agreements? Do you want a veto for your community against the GC community and a 30% share from the treasury? do you want 30% of Cyprus and a dividing line with it all being enforced by the Turkish military?

What I want is when GC act not as Cypriots (that includes me and my community) but as Greeks (that excludes me and my community), denying that Cyprus exists as a nation and a people, I want the same rights as them as a community and to be able to voice and exercise those rights (to determine my own future in my own homeland and not to be made a colony of a foreign power against my will) without fear of persecution and terror being used against me and my community as a means to deny me of those rights.

Ok, this is going to get confusing,

do you say yes or no to all those questions? we can come back to your paragraph in a moment.

It is only confusing to you. You ignore all previous questions and comments to you and yet demand black and white answers top your own questions.

I have stated what I want clearly and concisely. There are many ways such needs could be met, the 1960's agreements were just one such means of trying to achieve those aims, there are countless others. However NONE of them will work if you believe that I and my community have no such right to determine our own future in our own homeland in the face of GC wants, that were not 'Cypriot' desires but in fact purely Greek desires and you had a god given right to impose such things on us. None of them will work if you believe that you are the 'true indigenous' Cypriots and we are just 'invaders'. None of them will work if you believe that you are the children of God and we are the children of the Devil.

So you answer me. Do you believe that GC, pursuing purely Greek (not pan Cypriot) desires for the future of Cyprus at the end of British colonial rule, had a right to impose on TC in their own homeland with no regard for their wishes, that Cyprus did not exist as a nation and state and there was no such thing as a Cypriot people and nationality and that their homeland would be ruled by what to TC was a foreign power ? That no only did they have a right to seek to impose this on TC against their will, they had a right to seek to do so using violence and murder and persecution ?

[Maximus]

VP

A unitary state is a state governed as one single unit in which the central government is supreme and any administrative divisions (subnational units) exercise only powers that their central government chooses to delegate. The great majority of states in the world have a unitary system of government.

taken straight from wikipedia, simple.

Do you understand this is not the model of state which is on offer? Its a two state solution under a federal joint governing body under a constitution which cannot unilaterally be changed? please get that into your head because its very frustrating when we are all saying oranges and you are saying bananas.

Its not a two state solution. This is what is on offer,

its going to be two administrative regions (subnational units) that exercise only those powers that the central government gives them. UN resolutions retroactive, full EU member state, democracy, one citizenship, one international personality, one president, one halloumi, respecting international law, peoples rights to property and ownership, retroactive. Respecting their demographic rights, freedom of expression etc...

whats the problem?

[erolz66]

Its not a two state solution. This is what is on offer,

its going to be two administrative regions (subnational units) that exercise only those powers that the central government gives them. UN resolutions retroactive, full EU member state, democracy, one citizenship, one international personality, one president, one halloumi, respecting international law, peoples rights to property and ownership, retroactive. Respecting their demographic rights, freedom of expression etc...

whats the problem?

No the federal entity will be given its powers by and from the federal elements, not the other way round. The reason why the federal government will have authority over x or y or z is because the federal elements have AGREED to give it such powers. If the federal components get given their power by central federal unit, then this is not a federation, it is just a unitary state , with two administrative regions called north and south pretending to be a federation. Dickhead.

[Maximus]

Its not a two state solution. This is what is on offer,

its going to be two administrative regions (subnational units) that exercise only those powers that the central government gives them. UN resolutions retroactive, full EU member state, democracy, one citizenship, one international personality, one president, one halloumi, respecting international law, peoples rights to property and ownership, retroactive. Respecting their demographic rights, freedom of expression etc...

whats the problem?

No the federal entity will be given its powers by and from the federal elements, not the other way round. The reason why the federal government will have authority over x or y or z is because the federal elements have AGREED to give it such powers. If the federal components get given their power by central federal unit, then this is not a federation, it is just a unitary state , with two administrative regions called north and south pretending to be a federation. Dickhead.

no, you are talking about creating a 'loose' confederation.. What is being negotiated is a 'federation'.

[erolz66]

From the joint declaration

"The united Cyprus, as a member of the United Nations and of the European Union, shall have a single, international legal personality and a single sovereignty which is defined as the sovereignty which is enjoyed by all members States of the United Nations, under the UN Charter and which emanates equally from Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots."

"Neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other."

What about the above is unclear to you maximalist ? Or is this just yet another document that after having been directly involved in drafting and signing you intend to declare as 'apartheid' and only signed under duress and therefore you can unilaterally ignore anything in it you do not like ?

The central federal elements of the (proposed post solution) state, like its single international personality and sovereignty emanate EQAULLY from both GC and TC community.

You may see a federal state where the federal element (dominated numerically by GC imposes its will on the TC component element) but such is NOT compatible with "Neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other." The central federal state will not decide what power it has and what powers the component states have. The two communities will decide this on the basis of equality of each community and having decided and agreed such things any revision will require the consent of each component element to change. The power and legitimacy of the federal element as such will derive from each component state equally and by extension each community equally.

[erolz66]

no, you are talking about creating a 'loose' confederation.. What is being negotiated is a 'federation'.

No what you are talking about is a unitary state with a couple of administrative regions whos power and authority derives only from that granted to them by the central government and whos power and authority can be amended at will by central government. This NOT what a federation is and it is not the point or purpose of a federation at all. I can not help it if you are too ignorant or stubborn or both to understand this.

[Maximus]

From the joint declaration

"The united Cyprus, as a member of the United Nations and of the European Union, shall have a single, international legal personality and a single sovereignty which is defined as the sovereignty which is enjoyed by all members States of the United Nations, under the UN Charter and which emanates equally from Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots."

"Neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other."

What about the above is unclear to you maximalist ? Or is this just yet another document that after having been directly involved in drafting and signing you intend to declare as 'apartheid' and only signed under duress and therefore you can unilaterally ignore anything in it you do not like ?

The central federal elements of the (proposed post solution) state, like its single international personality and sovereignty emanate EQAULLY from both GC and TC community.

You may see a federal state where the federal element (dominated numerically imposes its will on the TC component element) but such is NOT compatible with "Neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other." The central federal state will not decide what power it has and what powers the component states have. The two communities will decide this on the basis of equality of each community and having decided and agreed such things any revision will require the consent of each component element to change. The power and legitimacy of the federal element as such will derive from each component state equally and by extension each community equally.

right, you put a GC and a TC in a room and they are both Cypriot.

so what powers do you delegate to the central government? do you want the 1960's agreements? Do you want a veto for your community against the GC community and a 30% share from the treasury? do you want 30% of Cyprus and a dividing line with it all being enforced by the Turkish military?

[Maximus]

no, you are talking about creating a 'loose' confederation.. What is being negotiated is a 'federation'.

No what you are talking about is a unitary state with a couple of administrative regions whos power and authority derives only from that granted to them by the central government and whos power and authority can be amended at will by central government. This NOT what a federation is and it is not the point or purpose of a federation at all. I can not help it if you are too ignorant or stubborn or both to understand this.

Thats sounds like a federation. what power do you need?

[erolz66]

right, you put a GC and a TC in a room and they are both Cypriot.

so what powers do you delegate to the central government? do you want the 1960's agreements? Do you want a veto for your community against the GC community and a 30% share from the treasury? do you want 30% of Cyprus and a dividing line with it all being enforced by the Turkish military?

What I want is to believe that you ACCEPT that we as a community in our shared homeland have an equal right to you to determine our own futures in our own homeland and that you do not have a right to impose on us that which is an anathema to us in our own shared homeland.

Without that nothing you sign gives me any confidence because you show over and over again here that you do NOT believe this and what is more that even if you sign something saying you do agree to it, you can and will at any time unilaterally decided such agreements are 'apartheid' and were forced on you unfairly and you can just unilaterally declare them void.

What matters to me is you WILL and your INTENT. The more you argue that the 60's agreements were 'apartheid' and that you therefore had a right to ignore them unilaterally at will and by extension had a right to use illegal violence and terror against us as a community to force us to accept their unilateral amendment, the more I require guarantees along the lines of veto rights and external power like Turkey. Conversely the more I believe that you sincerely accept my communities rights to have an effective voice in determining their own future in their own shared homeland equally along with yours the less I need such things.

If you really want to know what I personal want in terms of specifics of an agreement then I have written such many times in the past and you only need search for it.

Will you ever answer the questions put to YOU or are you just going to keep on demanding answers from me whilst ignoring everything ask of you ?