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Christofias for President?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

President Christofias, would it be good for solution?

Yes
3
33%
No
4
44%
He will never run because he cannot win against Tassos
2
22%
 
Total votes : 9

Postby cypezokyli » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:30 pm

Regarding the impact of religion, culture, language, background, historical events:

. The human race throughout all known history shows that people form groups on the basis of the above criteria and fight with each other.. it's human nature!

people throughout history fought for all kinds of different reasons. the way that you define groups is a creation of the last 200 years : i.e. nationalism. ofcource there were religious wars, ofource there were nationalist wars but it is not just them...let me remind you that the bloodiest war that greece went through in this century was the civili war where a whole generation was whiped out. and they were same language same culture same backround same religion. u have civil wars, u hve ideology wars, economic wars, people going to war because a king told them so etc etc and it could be more than one reason at the same time.

i already gave you two examples how the necessary climate for fanatics is created.

The answer to this is a resounding YES. The threats that GCs were subjected to prior to the referendum could not have been any greater. And yet they stood up against the whole world (including Greece!). In the above case, a No will much easier.. not stopping this would be suicide for Cyprus, as it would mean that the status quo would continue forever. Give me one good reason why Cyprus would not say No before a solution has been found which they GC acceptable?

a NO to turkeys accession will be taken by the president and not by the people. a cyprus president in brussels alone with the big members against him will not have much of a chance.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:37 pm

sadik wrote:
Kifeas, the TC community supports the BBF. However you are also saying regional autonomy. Regional autonomy and BBF are not the same thing. Regional autonomy does not involve any power sharing at the Federal level. Official positions don't seem to be very far from each other, but if the sides don't really want what's their official policy, that's another thing.

Sadik, I feel you didn’t understand what I tried to say. I said that we (GCs) already agreed -and this should be seen as a huge compromise, that Cyprus will evolve from a unitary bi-communal state into a Federal bi-communal and bi-zonal one. When I say it will evolve from a Unitary bi-communal state into a Federal bi-communal, it already presupposes that the pre-existing bi-communal nature of the state remains as it is under the concept of the unitary (1960) RoC, which will evolve into becoming the federal (central) government of the country. The only additional aspect that is to be introduced is the concept of bi-zonality, which did not exist in the 1960 RoC. In other words, I did not specifically mention the issue power sharing in the federal government because it is already assumed by definition, and that is why it was omitted in my previous description. Now, the issue of bi-zonality (bi-zonal federation) is what essentially differentiates the new structure from the previous one (1960.) It is here where our conceptual differences mostly occur. We viewed the agreed in principle bi-zonal aspect as an administrating evolution of the Unitary RoC -in which there where 6 districts directly subordinate to the central RoC government, into two bigger federal zones which will have their own sub-governments which will enjoy an increased amount of autonomous power than the districts used to have (hence the term regional autonomy which I referred to above,) both of which will be equal to each other, but both will be subordinate to the central federal government in which they will also participate in their capacity as federal states, besides the already remaining bi-communal aspect of the central federal government.

In other words, we view the new structure as an evolution of the already existing bi-communal unitary RoC. You may ask then, what is the point of introducing the bi-zonal aspect. We accepted the bi-zonal aspect only because it was the demand of the TC side (not just after but even before 1974 -it was a multi-zonal then,) which wanted to have a sense of regional autonomy in the areas in which the TCs were the most populous. The TCs did not like the idea of GC policemen patrolling and policing their people, GC civil servants dealing with their everyday administrating affairs, GC judges trying TCs, etc, etc. However, when we accepted such an arrangement in 1975, we did not accept it on the basis that each one of the two areas (zones) will become -in a sense- of the exclusive ownership of each one of the two communities. We accepted it on the basis of a technical arrangement which on the one hand will allow all the GCs who traditionally originate from within the northern zone to be able to return back to their places and properties (most of them) and on the other hand it will be adjusted on the ground in such a way as to allow the TCs to remain the majority in this zone, so that they can effectively have the control of the regional sub-government. This is why we also accepted that the territory of the northern zone would be a substantially bigger ratio than the population of the TCs would have justified.

This is what we more or less accepted and /or assumed and /or understood, back then in 1975 when we (the GC side) made the compromise for a BBF. What is it then our conceptual difference with what the TC side wants the BBF to be like and which was also manifested in the A-plan?

The TC side begins with the so-called “virgin-birth” approach /demand. What this means conceptually but also in practice? The new state of affairs is not an evolution of any pre-existing structure or entity. The two states (federal zones,) are assumed to be the successors of the already existing (de facto) structures. The two communities are elevated into two separate people, and each one of them is (at least in theory,) assumed to be the exclusive or traditional owner of each one of the two areas respectively. Hence the introduction of the internal citizenship status to immediately replace the “TRNC” citizenship status, and which was not meant to be given immediately to the GCs that would have been allowed to move into it, unless they first pass through the resident’s status and only after approval -but which (internal citizenship status) would have been given immediately to the settlers. The “TRNC” conceptually evolves into a constituent state of the ne -by virgin birth- structure, and the RoC devolves itself into the other constituent state, both of which come together and constitute the Federal (central) government –to which they are assumed to be the co-partners and co-founders. The three governments are all constitutionally equal to each other and they function in parallel, i.e. no hierarchy between the central government and the two constituent states. The GCs originating from the northern part’s towns and villages that will be allowed to gradually move into it, will be assumed and /or treated as newcomers (immigrants in a sense,) and not as already pre-existing and fully fletched inhabitants and consequently immediate citizens of the TC constituent state. They will have to first go through the long and gradual process of residency status and only after application and approval will eventually be regarded as (internal) citizens. The constitution of the TC state is drafted in such a way (as in a-plan,) that essentially denotes this very assumption, namely that the northern –to be- TC state -and its entire area, are of the exclusive ownership of the TC community, as if it has always been its (and only) traditional homeland. Among other droll provisions, it would have required any GC that would have wished to participate in the internal political affairs of the state, to take an oath on Atatürk’s principles.

Of course, Denktash had an even more “radical” conceptual understanding of the BBF. His understanding (and demand) was that the two sides should have first been recognized as two separate and sovereign entities, and then proceed into any kind of agreement between them.

Why the GC side does not accept the TC concept of “virgin-birth” approach, which was also manifested (but not stipulated verbally) in the A-plan? We do not accept this approach because among other reasons it is unacceptable from a historical perspective, as it indirectly -but in essence and to the eternity, writes off all the historical existential rights of the GCs from the north 29% of their country, and this will become particularly evident in case the federal government collapses (or is made to collapse.)

Of course it goes without saying that the TC side interprets our refusal to accommodate their approach as an indication of our “intentions” to claim control over the entire of Cyprus and to dominate and eventually subject the TC community into the role of a mere minority.
Last edited by Kifeas on Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:51 pm

sadik wrote:
How would you feel about a geographical federation in which:
* Borders will be adjusted and property issue resolved in a definitive manner.
* Northern and southern states will have equal power in the federal government.
* Citizenship of the states will be based solely on residency
* There will be no permanent restrictions on residency and maybe none at all.
* Initially, TC population will be concentrated in the northern state. I don't think that TCs eventually becoming a minority in their state is likely.


Although I am not sure what you precisely mean on the first item of property resolution and boarder adjustments, such a federation as you describe it in the rest of your points is perfectly acceptable for me. However, I believe you need to elaborate a little bit more.

Are you sure such an approach could be acceptable by the TC community /leadership?
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Postby Tony-4497 » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:54 pm

cypez

re reasons for war: I am having trouble following your rationale.

I agree with you that in every country there is an inherent risk of civil war (which is however very small if you look at statistics in the recent past). This however is unavoidable - nothing you can do about it. Are you suggesting that, just because this risk exists, we should be adding even more (and in my view much higher) risk to the safety of a country through trying to create a bi-ethnic federation involving power sharing between 2 communities with a bitter and bloody recent past??

Do you honestly believe that adopting an Annan-type BBF would not create significant risk of inter-communal conflict?

a NO to turkeys accession will be taken by the president and not by the people. a cyprus president in brussels alone with the big members against him will not have much of a chance.


Are you really suggesting that the single most important decision affecting the future of Cyprus will be made by the President on ad-hoc, impulse-driven basis in some corridor in Brussels through bullying??

This decision will be made by Cyprus and announced well before it reaches that point. In fact, the announcement alone would stop the process before the very final stage of accession being even reached (not to mention the 64 vetos).

Come on.. this is common sense.. even the EU and Turkey itself have accepted that there is no chance of accession before a solution in Cyprus. The EU has said this quite clearly and several times.
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Postby sadik » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:45 am

Kifeas wrote:Sadik, I feel you didn’t understand what I tried to say. I said that we (GCs) already agreed -and this should be seen as a huge compromise, that Cyprus will evolve from a unitary bi-communal state into a Federal bi-communal and bi-zonal one. When I say it will evolve from a Unitary bi-communal state into a Federal bi-communal, it already presupposes that the pre-existing bi-communal nature of the state remains as it is under the concept of the unitary (1960) RoC, which will evolve into becoming the federal (central) government of the country.


Kifeas, thanks for the in-detail explanation. I agree with you that continuation of the 1960 Republic by evolution is an important aspect of a solution. It looks like we have two options, if we are going to guarantee political equality, a concept that the GC side also accepts:

* Either we have two seperate states, with limitations on the internal citizenship rights of the states to guarantee that each state will stay TC or GC. Then, the political equality is achieved by giving political equality to the states, for example, equal number of senators from each state.

* Or, the bi-communal aspect of the united republic is kept independent from the federal structure. There will be seperate mechanisms for power sharing at the federal level. For example, senators will be elected by each community and not by the states. In this case the TCs will not need to worry about loosing their partnership rights in the united RoC if the population of the states change and no limitation is needed to be imposed at the local level.

Second option is the evolution of the ROC into a bi-zonal federation. I also believe that this second option is better if it can be achieved, because people will be able to live whereever they want, and they will be fully able to participate in the local life of the state they live in.
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Postby Maria28 » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:36 pm

Christofias is one of the best politicians that we have and he is the most popular also. So why not him for president? I would give him my vote.
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