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What happened to flight MH370?

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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:14 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:Image

https://malaysiaflyingherald.wordpress. ... ion-issue/

2058 Violations of Malaysia's Airspace!
Hmmm so those guys Singapore and Malaysia have airspace issues !
Very interesting :!:


A violation of Airspace can be as simple as an aircraft breaking its clearance, entering a restricted area, or military airspace without clearance.

In Australia, there are over 10,000 violations each year. Some are very minor and trivial, while others more severe.

The airspace around Singapore is pretty damn tight and there is a territory dispute with an island which both claim sovereignty over.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:05 am

Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:http://www.smh.com.au/world/former-malaysian-pm-lays-blame-on-boeing-for-mh370-disappearance-20140427-zr0cz.html

“The loss of the plane is due to the makers, Boeing. How can Boeing produce a plane that is so easily disabled?” he said.
.....
“Boeing must accept responsibility for building an aircraft that can disappear in mid-air so completely,” he said....


Of course the guy just ASSUMES the plane was disabled and then disappeared.
While at the same time his own Government is not even sure whether the plane they got on radar en route to the west and north west was MH370...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... er-3219331

Despite admitting an aircraft was detected, the Malaysian authorities say they do not know for certain whether or not it was the missing Malaysia Airways jet.

Assuming Paphitis will not jump up from his chair hitting the ceiling let me for the record point out that one of the initial searches was based on the assumption that the plane either crashed or shot down in the Gulf of Thailand. :wink:


Don't worry, I will not jump up and down hitting the ceiling. There is good reason why Transponders and ADS-B can be disabled. In fact Transponders require a code, and the pilots must be able to SQUAWK that code in order for SSR Radar to interrogate the aircraft's flight number and data. If the pilots have the wrong code, then the system falls apart. They also use pre-determined codes to notify emergencies such as Hijacking in a discreet manner.

And in order to change the code, the Transponder must be put in SBY Mode, otherwise the SSR Radar will cycle through thousands of codes and go ballistic.

These things are determined by the regulator and there is nothing that sets apart a Boeing aircraft to an Airbus. In fact both use the same systems on board from firms such as Honeywell and Raytheon.


actually the whole point here is that nothing has been disabled! :wink:
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:12 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:http://www.smh.com.au/world/former-malaysian-pm-lays-blame-on-boeing-for-mh370-disappearance-20140427-zr0cz.html

“The loss of the plane is due to the makers, Boeing. How can Boeing produce a plane that is so easily disabled?” he said.
.....
“Boeing must accept responsibility for building an aircraft that can disappear in mid-air so completely,” he said....


Of course the guy just ASSUMES the plane was disabled and then disappeared.
While at the same time his own Government is not even sure whether the plane they got on radar en route to the west and north west was MH370...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... er-3219331

Despite admitting an aircraft was detected, the Malaysian authorities say they do not know for certain whether or not it was the missing Malaysia Airways jet.

Assuming Paphitis will not jump up from his chair hitting the ceiling let me for the record point out that one of the initial searches was based on the assumption that the plane either crashed or shot down in the Gulf of Thailand. :wink:


Don't worry, I will not jump up and down hitting the ceiling. There is good reason why Transponders and ADS-B can be disabled. In fact Transponders require a code, and the pilots must be able to SQUAWK that code in order for SSR Radar to interrogate the aircraft's flight number and data. If the pilots have the wrong code, then the system falls apart. They also use pre-determined codes to notify emergencies such as Hijacking in a discreet manner.

And in order to change the code, the Transponder must be put in SBY Mode, otherwise the SSR Radar will cycle through thousands of codes and go ballistic.

These things are determined by the regulator and there is nothing that sets apart a Boeing aircraft to an Airbus. In fact both use the same systems on board from firms such as Honeywell and Raytheon.


actually the whole point here is that nothing has been disabled! :wink:


If nothing was disabled we wouldn't be looking for MH370 today or at least they can never be any doubt as to the approximate search area.

They probably would still be faced with a tad more difficulty in finding the wreckage than they faced with AF447 because that aircraft was more or less on its original course to be honest, but it would be a lot easier than it is now.

Sorry Pyro, but you are coming up with some strange things and earlier I think you were insinuating that the Royal Thai Air Force must have shot it down. Really?
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:18 am

Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:I'm afraid you do not know what you're talking about.

Satellites have atomic clocks which a accurate to a nanosecond and they have to be in order to guide Missiles and Bombs to their target or assist with the navigation of an aircraft such as an RNAV Approach.

Accuracies are within 1m in a military application and 30m for civil applications as the Pentagon factors in errors so that their Satellites can't be used against them.

So yes the technologies exist and that is a well known fact. They actually measure the time a signal takes to reach a satellite. That is what GPS does.

If you are within range of one Satellite you are placed on an arc. If there are 2 Satellites, your position could be along 2 possible intersects. 3 Satellites and your position has been pinpointed.


Hahaha. Actually it's me who first pointed out in this forum that satellites are synchronized to nanoseconds using atomic clocks.And actually it's me who pointed out that this should be the case for Inmarsat.
Unfortunately I later discovered I was wrong
a)The inmarsat satellites were not designed for accurate time measurements because that was not required for their activities.
In fact after they got their data there was a question of having to resynchronize all their systems and satellites and record the time errors they had when they recorded the 7 pings
b)The only time measurements they got were from log files stored in computers that by design record times to the accuracy of about 1 thousand of a second which unfortunately is 10 times bigger than the time required for a signal to reach their satellite when traveling at the speed of light.

NB. And satellites don't have atomic clocks on board. Do some search for Christ sake. They get synchronized (some more often than others) via atomic clocks on ground.


I can't comment on Inmarssat because I do not know, however their clock would be accurate enough to place the aircraft in the Indian Ocean. Also, all ACARS are time stamped and LAT and LONG coordinates are given. Whether they rely on ADS-B or have their own method of triangulation I don't know.

What is known, is that they have compared their data against 2 aircraft, one heading north and another heading south and deduced that MH370 was heading south along the Southern Corridor.


ok fair enough , i am not going to discuss the whole issue with you, since obviously we will not understand what i will say.
you posted this graph before
cyprus41865-930.html#p786322
so i will ask you to do a simple check.keep the results for yourself if you like. or post the results here.they are simple enough and everybody can draw safe conclusions.
here;s what to do:
ping no 7 is on the right corner of the graph.
the bottom scale is a time scale in hours, with subdivisions of 15 minutes.
measure the time difference between
ping 6 to 7
ping 5 to 6
ping 4 to 5
ping 3 to 4
ping 2 to 3.

leave it upto there, the rest get more complicated.

like i said keep the results and any possible conclusions to yourself or present them here for discussion. your choice.

n.b. if you need a clearer drawing i can provide you one
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:25 am

Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:http://www.smh.com.au/world/former-malaysian-pm-lays-blame-on-boeing-for-mh370-disappearance-20140427-zr0cz.html

“The loss of the plane is due to the makers, Boeing. How can Boeing produce a plane that is so easily disabled?” he said.
.....
“Boeing must accept responsibility for building an aircraft that can disappear in mid-air so completely,” he said....


Of course the guy just ASSUMES the plane was disabled and then disappeared.
While at the same time his own Government is not even sure whether the plane they got on radar en route to the west and north west was MH370...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... er-3219331

Despite admitting an aircraft was detected, the Malaysian authorities say they do not know for certain whether or not it was the missing Malaysia Airways jet.

Assuming Paphitis will not jump up from his chair hitting the ceiling let me for the record point out that one of the initial searches was based on the assumption that the plane either crashed or shot down in the Gulf of Thailand. :wink:


Don't worry, I will not jump up and down hitting the ceiling. There is good reason why Transponders and ADS-B can be disabled. In fact Transponders require a code, and the pilots must be able to SQUAWK that code in order for SSR Radar to interrogate the aircraft's flight number and data. If the pilots have the wrong code, then the system falls apart. They also use pre-determined codes to notify emergencies such as Hijacking in a discreet manner.

And in order to change the code, the Transponder must be put in SBY Mode, otherwise the SSR Radar will cycle through thousands of codes and go ballistic.

These things are determined by the regulator and there is nothing that sets apart a Boeing aircraft to an Airbus. In fact both use the same systems on board from firms such as Honeywell and Raytheon.


actually the whole point here is that nothing has been disabled! :wink:


If nothing was disabled we wouldn't be looking for MH370 today or at least they can never be any doubt as to the approximate search area.

They probably would still be faced with a tad more difficulty in finding the wreckage than they faced with AF447 because that aircraft was more or less on its original course to be honest, but it would be a lot easier than it is now.

Sorry Pyro, but you are coming up with some strange things and earlier I think you were insinuating that the Royal Thai Air Force must have shot it down. Really?


like i said i like to explore all possibilities.the truth will some day come to the surface.
what else would you think when the malaysian gvnt said
Despite admitting an aircraft was detected, the Malaysian authorities say they do not know for certain whether or not it was the missing Malaysia Airways jet.
wouldn't you start thinking of other possibilities?
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:29 am

Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:Image

https://malaysiaflyingherald.wordpress. ... ion-issue/

2058 Violations of Malaysia's Airspace!
Hmmm so those guys Singapore and Malaysia have airspace issues !
Very interesting :!:


A violation of Airspace can be as simple as an aircraft breaking its clearance, entering a restricted area, or military airspace without clearance.

In Australia, there are over 10,000 violations each year. Some are very minor and trivial, while others more severe.

The airspace around Singapore is pretty damn tight and there is a territory dispute with an island which both claim sovereignty over.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.


it;s just a path to explore, given the fact that Singaporean war planes should have flown over the region those days.
it seems the position where the plane actually vanished is actually Singaporean airspace not malaysian.
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:33 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:http://www.smh.com.au/world/former-malaysian-pm-lays-blame-on-boeing-for-mh370-disappearance-20140427-zr0cz.html

“The loss of the plane is due to the makers, Boeing. How can Boeing produce a plane that is so easily disabled?” he said.
.....
“Boeing must accept responsibility for building an aircraft that can disappear in mid-air so completely,” he said....


Of course the guy just ASSUMES the plane was disabled and then disappeared.
While at the same time his own Government is not even sure whether the plane they got on radar en route to the west and north west was MH370...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... er-3219331

Despite admitting an aircraft was detected, the Malaysian authorities say they do not know for certain whether or not it was the missing Malaysia Airways jet.

Assuming Paphitis will not jump up from his chair hitting the ceiling let me for the record point out that one of the initial searches was based on the assumption that the plane either crashed or shot down in the Gulf of Thailand. :wink:


Don't worry, I will not jump up and down hitting the ceiling. There is good reason why Transponders and ADS-B can be disabled. In fact Transponders require a code, and the pilots must be able to SQUAWK that code in order for SSR Radar to interrogate the aircraft's flight number and data. If the pilots have the wrong code, then the system falls apart. They also use pre-determined codes to notify emergencies such as Hijacking in a discreet manner.

And in order to change the code, the Transponder must be put in SBY Mode, otherwise the SSR Radar will cycle through thousands of codes and go ballistic.

These things are determined by the regulator and there is nothing that sets apart a Boeing aircraft to an Airbus. In fact both use the same systems on board from firms such as Honeywell and Raytheon.


actually the whole point here is that nothing has been disabled! :wink:


If nothing was disabled we wouldn't be looking for MH370 today or at least they can never be any doubt as to the approximate search area.

They probably would still be faced with a tad more difficulty in finding the wreckage than they faced with AF447 because that aircraft was more or less on its original course to be honest, but it would be a lot easier than it is now.

Sorry Pyro, but you are coming up with some strange things and earlier I think you were insinuating that the Royal Thai Air Force must have shot it down. Really?


like i said i like to explore all possibilities.the truth will some day come to the surface.
what else would you think when the malaysian gvnt said
Despite admitting an aircraft was detected, the Malaysian authorities say they do not know for certain whether or not it was the missing Malaysia Airways jet.
wouldn't you start thinking of other possibilities?


Yes but these possibilities do not take into consideration the 7 Handshake Pings with Inmarsat. If MH370 ended earlier then these pings would not occur.

Yes it is true, that without a Transponder the aircraft would be unidentified. The question more to the point is why they did not bother with identifying the target. I can accept that it was not deemed a risk and the aircraft was in Class A Airpsace and not military so perhaps the military presumed that the aircraft was under Malaysian ATC and in hand which is reasonable enough. However, at Air Traffic control Centers there is always a military attachment, and the military should have made a phone call to Malaysian ATC to ask about the unidentified aircraft and whether they knew anything about it or whether there was Flight Plan Lodged. The military should have attempted to contact the aircraft and asked it to turn their Transponder ON and to SQAWK a Code or press the IDENT switch. If they did not reply, then they should have intercepted the target.

This is what would have happened elsewhere, particularly in US, Australia, or China.

But that is Military Intelligence for you. May I remind you that in 911, the US Military stood by and allowed 4 airliners to deviate from their course. They had no idea what was going on until it was too late. Probably because no one expects such things to occur.
Last edited by Paphitis on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:44 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:Image

https://malaysiaflyingherald.wordpress. ... ion-issue/

2058 Violations of Malaysia's Airspace!
Hmmm so those guys Singapore and Malaysia have airspace issues !
Very interesting :!:


A violation of Airspace can be as simple as an aircraft breaking its clearance, entering a restricted area, or military airspace without clearance.

In Australia, there are over 10,000 violations each year. Some are very minor and trivial, while others more severe.

The airspace around Singapore is pretty damn tight and there is a territory dispute with an island which both claim sovereignty over.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.


it;s just a path to explore, given the fact that Singaporean war planes should have flown over the region those days.
it seems the position where the plane actually vanished is actually Singaporean airspace not malaysian.


No, the aircraft was a long way from Singapore and they know this because MH370 was being interrogated by Military Radar.

It's also not something Singapore would even contemplate. It would be like Cyprus shooting down a Turkish Airlines Passenger Jet that overflew the RoC. What do you think the reply to this will be?
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:54 am

Paphitis wrote:
Yes but these possibilities do not take into consideration the 7 Handshake Pings with Inmarsat. If MH370 ended earlier then these pings would not occur.

Yes it is true, that without a Transponder the aircraft would be unidentified. The question more to the point is why they did not bother with identifying the target. I can accept that it was not deemed a risk and the aircraft was in Class A Airpsace and not military so perhaps the military presumed that the aircraft was under Malaysian ATC and in hand which is reasonable enough. However, at Air Traffic control Centers there is always a military attachment, and the military should have made a phone call to Malaysian ATC to ask about the unidentified aircraft and whether they knew anything about it or whether there was Flight Plan Lodged. The military should have attempted to contact the aircraft and asked it to turn their Transponder ON and to SQAWK a Code. If they did not reply, then they should have intercepted the target.

This is what would have happened elsewhere, particularly in US, Australia, or China.

But that is Military Intelligence for you. May I remind you that in 911, the US Military stood by and allowed 4 airliners to deviate from their course. They had no idea what was going on until it was too late. Probably because no one expects such things to occur.


it seems you haven't done the check on the handshakes graph i told you about. do it and i am sure you will get your answers..
ok i accept your explanation that under normal circumstances it would be near impossible to shoot down a passenger plane on purpose.
but accidents do happen.imagine a self guided missile falling of the jet.what would it do? search for the nearest target and go hit it :shock:
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Re: What happened to flight MH370?

Postby Paphitis » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:08 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Yes but these possibilities do not take into consideration the 7 Handshake Pings with Inmarsat. If MH370 ended earlier then these pings would not occur.

Yes it is true, that without a Transponder the aircraft would be unidentified. The question more to the point is why they did not bother with identifying the target. I can accept that it was not deemed a risk and the aircraft was in Class A Airpsace and not military so perhaps the military presumed that the aircraft was under Malaysian ATC and in hand which is reasonable enough. However, at Air Traffic control Centers there is always a military attachment, and the military should have made a phone call to Malaysian ATC to ask about the unidentified aircraft and whether they knew anything about it or whether there was Flight Plan Lodged. The military should have attempted to contact the aircraft and asked it to turn their Transponder ON and to SQAWK a Code. If they did not reply, then they should have intercepted the target.

This is what would have happened elsewhere, particularly in US, Australia, or China.

But that is Military Intelligence for you. May I remind you that in 911, the US Military stood by and allowed 4 airliners to deviate from their course. They had no idea what was going on until it was too late. Probably because no one expects such things to occur.


it seems you haven't done the check on the handshakes graph i told you about. do it and i am sure you will get your answers..
ok i accept your explanation that under normal circumstances it would be near impossible to shoot down a passenger plane on purpose.
but accidents do happen.imagine a self guided missile falling of the jet.what would it do? search for the nearest target and go hit it :shock:


I have looked at it Pyro but I am certainly not qualified to comment on how Inmarsat did their calculations or the Doppler Effect.

These things are best left to the experts and I have no doubt that their findings will be published within the preliminary report which only the Malaysian Government can release.

Inmarsat from what I understand is not allowed to reveal this information. The data is apparently Boeing property which makes sense.

It's also stuff the Airlines and Regulators don't want revealed too much because it is sensitive, it reduces safety and knowledge of increases the chance of possible hijackings similar to 911. The whole world knows now how aircraft are tracked, how the Transponder and ADS-B can be disabled and how it is also possible to disable ACARS. I would presume that after AF447 and MH370, some new methods will be introduced and perhaps regulators will this time act on the findings.

It would be nice if Inmarsat would throw open its spreadsheets and help resolve the issue right now, but that could be too much to expect. Inmarsat may be bound by confidentiality agreements with its customers, not to mention U.S. laws that restrict the release of information about sensitive technologies. The Malaysian authorities, however, can release what they want to—and they seem to be shifting their stance toward openness. After long resisting pressure to release the air traffic control transcript, they eventually relented. Now acting transport minister Hishammuddin Hussein says that if and when the black boxes are found, their data will be released to the public.


I think you will find that the above is in fact very correct.

Now envisage a group of a new breed of terrorists in training camps in remote parts of Pakistan coming to a flight near you.
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