Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

I don't have time so you will have to wait for a more detailed response.

Shipping of lithium Batteries is extremely safe because of all the control measures and safety systems in the Cargo Hold. They are not the most dangerous items that can be carried quite legally under the IATA DG Regulations. Radioactive materials, ammunition, explosives, pressurized canisters and other toxic and corrosive substances can be carried provided they do not exceed specific quantities in the same package, the package is of a particular packing group or standard, is labelled with the correct IATA Hazard Labels, displays the UN Number, is consigned properly on the manifest, and the Captain is issued with a NOTOC with Emergency Response Code and showing him/her which cargo hold the material is in. 1 The Lithium would be stored on its own. The Cargo Hold has smoke detectors and automatic foam fire suppressant.2 Lithium does not explode. It can slowly release heat or energy and start a fire. 3

This stuff is transported day in day out, and it is done safely. What is dangerous are passengers putting Lithium into their check in bags. This is illegal and can carry a penalty of 7 years in jail if you do it and get caught. It is forbidden because there are no controls or safety measures. For instance, the terminals would not be insulated in insulation tape, and can short circuit if they contact another metallic object. Then they release their heat or energy and a fire can start.

Carrying lithium in carry on bags is fine. People usually have Laptops, Mobile Phones, Cameras, and other electronic devices - a no no in your check in bags.

1--> Hearing that such more dangerous products can be shipped by air, actually relieved me from a burden I always had in my conscience when ordering lithium batteries knowing they would be shipped by air. Or at least relieved me partially.
2--> Hearing that there are are enough safety measures on an aircraft to detect any possible problems is quite positive too.
3---> But the damn things do explode, and they do cause fire. Usually this can happen by external short circuit and that's why the packing should be such that insulates the poles. Unfortunately they can explode from other reasons the most usual of which is internal short circuit, which is totally unpredictable. Another factor that may make them explode is external radiation.
The fire is not OXYGEN dependent. They "burn" their own materials. And unfortunately the foam fire extinguishers are totally useless in extinguishing such a fire.

I have no idea of what kind of gases they release when exploding/catching fire. I will await GIG to give us more details.

Btw I had to send my laptop abroad for repair just a few days ago. I contacted DHL and they told me that they don't accept to ship laptops unless I remove the battery. I am sure DHL has the same policy worldwide, and this should be the case in Australia as well.

[Paphitis]

I don't have time so you will have to wait for a more detailed response.

Shipping of lithium Batteries is extremely safe because of all the control measures and safety systems in the Cargo Hold. They are not the most dangerous items that can be carried quite legally under the IATA DG Regulations. Radioactive materials, ammunition, explosives, pressurized canisters and other toxic and corrosive substances can be carried provided they do not exceed specific quantities in the same package, the package is of a particular packing group or standard, is labelled with the correct IATA Hazard Labels, displays the UN Number, is consigned properly on the manifest, and the Captain is issued with a NOTOC with Emergency Response Code and showing him/her which cargo hold the material is in. 1 The Lithium would be stored on its own. The Cargo Hold has smoke detectors and automatic foam fire suppressant.2 Lithium does not explode. It can slowly release heat or energy and start a fire. 3

This stuff is transported day in day out, and it is done safely. What is dangerous are passengers putting Lithium into their check in bags. This is illegal and can carry a penalty of 7 years in jail if you do it and get caught. It is forbidden because there are no controls or safety measures. For instance, the terminals would not be insulated in insulation tape, and can short circuit if they contact another metallic object. Then they release their heat or energy and a fire can start.

Carrying lithium in carry on bags is fine. People usually have Laptops, Mobile Phones, Cameras, and other electronic devices - a no no in your check in bags.

1--> Hearing that such more dangerous products can be shipped by air, actually relieved me from a burden I always had in my conscience when ordering lithium batteries knowing they would be shipped by air. Or at least relieved me partially.
2--> Hearing that there are are enough safety measures on an aircraft to detect any possible problems is quite positive too.
3---> But the damn things do explode, and they do cause fire. Usually this can happen by external short circuit and that's why the packing should be such that insulates the poles. Unfortunately they can explode from other reasons the most usual of which is internal short circuit, which is totally unpredictable. Another factor that may make them explode is external radiation.
The fire is not OXYGEN dependent. They "burn" their own materials. And unfortunately the foam fire extinguishers are totally useless in extinguishing such a fire.

I have no idea of what kind of gases they release when exploding/catching fire. I will await GIG to give us more details.

Btw I had to send my laptop abroad for repair just a few days ago. I contacted DHL and they told me that they don't accept to ship laptops unless I remove the battery. I am sure DHL has the same policy worldwide, and this should be the case in Australia as well.

There is no need to feel guilty when carrying Lithium. Just follow the rules and keep them in your Carry On. Lithium is just a necessity in everyday life.

Aviation is safe. Aircraft are safe and there are a lot of safety systems on board and procedures for everything. Malaysian is a first tier airline. One of the best in the world.

The fire suppression is extremely effective. The material used is usually Halon or some other Oxygen Depriving Material. The fire is basically inundated before it takes hold. The smoke detectors only need to detect what is a minute amount of smoke and bang, away they go.

DHL are able to ship Dangerous Goods. You could ship your laptop with battery, but you must declare it and DHL should consign it as a Dangerous Good. They or you would need to tape over the terminals of the battery with approved insulation tape and DHL will need to package the consignment appropriately, in accordance with IATA Regulations, issue a Dangerous Goods Declaration with the UN3480 label, Lithium Ion labels, and the consignment would need to be NOTOCed.

DHL would probably charge you double because there is quite a lot of paperwork.

[Pyrpolizer]

I am guilty GIG of almost poisoning myself.
I always knew these batteries were dangerous, and I personally never used them without a protection circuit attached to them.The good thing about them is they can deliver huge amounts of current almost instantly. And sometimes you need such power.
Anyway I was with a friend who had some scrap Lithium batteries, and we got that funny idea of short circuiting one of those (actually it was a small lithium polymer battery, not lithium -ion, the former are a bit most dangerous) to see what happens.
We did that from a distance, knowing the possible risks.
Well you won't beleive what kind of flash and burst it did.
Final result, it ate a couple of tiles from my friends backyard and his wife was shouting like hell.

His wife?!? I read your story thinking you were going to tell me you were little kids when you did this! lol

Anyway, Lithium batteries causing problems to planes has been in the news recently ...

Investigators in Japan are investigating why a lithium-ion battery overheated on a Boeing 787 Dreamliner at Narita airport. Last year Boeing grounded its entire fleet of the next-generation plane after the lithium batteries on two of the aircraft caught fire. (The 787s returned to the air after being fitted with a modified system to protect the aircraft against battery fires.)

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economis ... xplains-19

- . - . I wonder if they bothered with the Boeing 777s ?

Well I plea guilty as charged GIG.

[Paphitis]

Oh aircraft or airlines have exemptions and can carry items which would normally be deemed as dangerous by IATA. Things like oxygen bottles for instance.

Aircraft usually carry a bank of Batteries to start up the Auxiliary Power Unit. Basically just like your car battery. You need these batteries if no external power source is available such as a Ground Power Unit.

There are also exemptions for Lithium Powered Wheel Chairs etc which can be consigned - only subject to carrier approval. It would be a brave airline that refuses. Not good PR!

[GreekIslandGirl]

I have no idea of what kind of gases they release when exploding/catching fire. I will await GIG to give us more details.

I'm waiting to hear from someone because the only/main thing I can find (apart from the usual fire products) is that the "steam" from the electrolyte can emit an anesthetic-like gas (see Kikapu's idea of everyone going to "sleep") and Hydrogen Fluoride (pretty toxic).

[Pyrpolizer]

http://www.airtrafficmanagement.net/...-outright-ban/
Lithium cargo facing outright industry ban
Posted on April 1, 2014 by Aimee Turner
A worldwide cargo ban on transporting highly combustible lithium metal batteries on passenger aircraft could be imposed on airlines as early as next week, writes Aimée Turner.

There was comprehensive testing of all the various chemistries and sizes in a series of simulated cargo fire scenarios using shipping cartons placed in a test Boeing 727 airframe – either through overheating or through directly heating the battery up to 190 degrees Celsius.

Test showed that smoke caused by the fire quickly engulfed the flight deck within eight or nine minutes of detection. In one test, after that test had finished with halon levels nearing zero and oxygen levels increasing, a single battery in thermal runway led to a flash fire, causing an explosion that ripped through the test airframe and blew the flight deck door off its hinges. Tests in the hold of a freighter aircraft showed that smoke started to pour into the flight deck within five minutes and became so severe that it soon became fully obscured by smoke. more:

[Paphitis]

They have done many tests and the consensus is that Lithium isn't nearly explosive enough to bring down an airliner. The biggest risk is fire.

Also, there was no fire on board MH370. It is not normal to climb to 45000FT when you have a fire on board or go on a 7 hour long jolly.

Fire is something not under consideration.

Highly doubtful that Lithium will be banned. I can think of 100 other DG that should be banned well before lithium. Things like explosives!

These are all the materials that can be shipped as a DG.

http://www.dgiglobal.com/classes

The scenario of everyone going to sleep was actually something I stated. I mentioned the possibility of deliberate depressurization resulting in the mass murder of everyone on MH370. At least one person would have to be sliver due to a number of controlled events on that flight, which includes altitude and heading changes of which there were several recorded from Primary returns.

[Pyrpolizer]

UPS B747 crash in Dubai in 2010

In that accident in which there were no survivors, the time interval between fire detection and the onset of aircraft system failures was around two and a half minutes.

The aircraft was found to be carrying at least three shipments of lithium batteries which should have been declared as hazardous materials – but were not. Testing conducted by the FAA Tech Center in the United States after the crash indicated that even overheating caused by an unrelated fire in the cargo hold could have caused a chain reaction: "For this reason, batteries that are not involved in an initial fire may ignite and propagate, creating a risk of a catastrophic event," stated the investigators in their final report.



An exploding lithium battery



A laptop that burned because of faulty battery

[Pyrpolizer]

I have no idea of what kind of gases they release when exploding/catching fire. I will await GIG to give us more details.

I'm waiting to hear from someone because the only/main thing I can find (apart from the usual fire products) is that the "steam" from the electrolyte can emit an anesthetic-like gas (see Kikapu's idea of everyone going to "sleep") and Hydrogen Fluoride (pretty toxic).

There has been no scientific work ever carried out GIG. It;s just assumptions.

Quote:
Another feature of Li-ion batteries is the potential for emitting toxic gases. So far it is HF (Hydrogen Fluoride) that has gained most interest as this is a very toxic gas. Other gases that can pose a danger include the chemical species in the oxidation and thermal breakdown of the initial LiPF6 salt solution. Most likely PF5, POF3 and HF are of greatest concern but also the fluorinated phosphoric acids can be of interest since they will give HF and phosphoric acid when completely reacted with water. The toxicity of all these gases is not fully established. The Swedish Work Environment Authority has exposure limits for total fluorides, HF and phosphoric acid but lacks data for the rest of the substances

The NGVi for total fluorides are 2 mg/m3 and HF has a TGVii of 2 ppm. NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, USA) states that HF has a IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and health) value of 30 ppm. No exposure linits are given for PF5 and POF3 , however their chlorine analogues, PCl5 and POCl3 have NGV values of 0.1 ppm. The toxicity might, however, differ between the chlorine and fluorine species and there is no general rule like "fluorine is always more toxic". But, still, the limits are low and gases evolved from battery fires are certainly of great concern to both the fire fighters, people in the vehicles and in the close vicinity of the fire. Both of these gases are very reactive and very few measurements have been performed on these gases in the literature. Yang, Zhuang and Ross2 report measurements conducted using TGA (Thermal Gravimetry Analysis) and FTIR (Fourier transform Infra Red) on pure LiPF6 salt and salt solved in EC, PC, DMC and EMC but so far little or none work has been published on emissions of these gases from fire scenarios.

[Paphitis]

I have no idea of what kind of gases they release when exploding/catching fire. I will await GIG to give us more details.

I'm waiting to hear from someone because the only/main thing I can find (apart from the usual fire products) is that the "steam" from the electrolyte can emit an anesthetic-like gas (see Kikapu's idea of everyone going to "sleep") and Hydrogen Fluoride (pretty toxic).

There has been no scientific work ever carried out GIG. It;s just assumptions.

Quote:
Another feature of Li-ion batteries is the potential for emitting toxic gases. So far it is HF (Hydrogen Fluoride) that has gained most interest as this is a very toxic gas. Other gases that can pose a danger include the chemical species in the oxidation and thermal breakdown of the initial LiPF6 salt solution. Most likely PF5, POF3 and HF are of greatest concern but also the fluorinated phosphoric acids can be of interest since they will give HF and phosphoric acid when completely reacted with water. The toxicity of all these gases is not fully established. The Swedish Work Environment Authority has exposure limits for total fluorides, HF and phosphoric acid but lacks data for the rest of the substances

The NGVi for total fluorides are 2 mg/m3 and HF has a TGVii of 2 ppm. NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, USA) states that HF has a IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and health) value of 30 ppm. No exposure linits are given for PF5 and POF3 , however their chlorine analogues, PCl5 and POCl3 have NGV values of 0.1 ppm. The toxicity might, however, differ between the chlorine and fluorine species and there is no general rule like "fluorine is always more toxic". But, still, the limits are low and gases evolved from battery fires are certainly of great concern to both the fire fighters, people in the vehicles and in the close vicinity of the fire. Both of these gases are very reactive and very few measurements have been performed on these gases in the literature. Yang, Zhuang and Ross2 report measurements conducted using TGA (Thermal Gravimetry Analysis) and FTIR (Fourier transform Infra Red) on pure LiPF6 salt and salt solved in EC, PC, DMC and EMC but so far little or none work has been published on emissions of these gases from fire scenarios.

Anyway, what does this have to do with MG370 other than the fact Lithium was carried?