Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

How many times should we hear the very same arguments that lead to no where? One side saying it was the Kypreoi's fault for wanting Enosis the other side saying it was the Kibrislis' fault for wanting taksim and inviting Turkey here. These are controversial issues that lead to no where. Everything that happened here just followed the natural route of cause and effect.

What we all need to do is just provide that first push to the natural rule of cause and effect so that this time it sets things right for EVERYONE concerned. How will we do that if we blame each other on a daily basis, if we are totally unable to understand why our compatriot is crying, and if we constantly try to gain on his loss?

The blame game continues because both sides fail to recognise the fears of the other and because the minority, perversely in my view, insist on being regarded as an equal community. Turkey screwed that status out of the colonial power in Zurich in order to gain power by proxy on the island for its own neo-Ottoman ambitions.

Today both sides perceive the other as having the upper hand, the Greek Cypriot government in terms of legality and international recognition and the Turkish Cypriots with the “facts on the ground” it has forcibly created. There will never be real peace in Cyprus until the Turkish Cypriots accept a solution that reflects their numbers and so their "share" of the island in terms of governance and territory. As we all know Turkey has emboldened them to demand more and changed the demographics to reinforce its claim.

The impression I get from reading the views of Turkish Cypriot “heroes” is that the Greek Cypriots must be punished permanently for “victimising” the minority pre 1974 – hardly an attitude that will lead to a just settlement!

Things are more or less the way you said.

That's because we are humans. Most of our actions and decissions are actually illogical. The few that are not have to abide to sentiment, or else they are rejected and fall back to illogical again.

If we are to look from the Kypreoi's viewpoint, of the situation in the occupied most of us would think those people are paranoid.Yet it is in line with their sentiments. They will never move into another situation that will not be in line with their sentiments.

If we look from the Kibrislis' viewpoint of the situation in our side again they would think we are paranoid because we don't want to share anything with them, we want to continue depriving them of what they are missing, we want to dominate them etc etc.The truth is we will never move into another situation that will not be in line with our sentiments either.

As long as ANY of the two sides fails to understand why the other side is RIGHT in their sentiment, we will never solve the cyprob.

The other day I attended a speech by some guy who wrote a book on the evolution of the 2 communities in Cyprus. What really striked me was his remark that the Kypreoi never understood and actually totally disregarded the FACT that the Kibrisli community in Cyprus never ever accepted that they were a minority. And it's not something that happened after 1974, it's something that pre-existed long long ago.
I am not going to judge if this is right or wrong, logical or illogical.

All i want to say is just repeat that ""As long as ANY of the two sides fails to understand why the other side is RIGHT in their sentiments, we will never solve the cyprob." Probably that's an utopia, but probably it is an utopia trying to solve the cyprob with peaceful means anyhow.

[Viewpoint]

Pyro well done...respect.

[Pyrpolizer]

you absolutly have a say on the federal level you just cant stall things and blackmail as you did in the 1960's,you may block things if a federal law affects your community differently than other communities.Again your region will have many responisbilties assigned to it.

concerning land it was always a ballpark figure 27-29% if all refugees would return.Negoiations are going on currenlty and the turkish red lines are permanent derogations and strict bizonality so if that is the case it drops to 18%

Now we are getting somewhere thankyou for giving us a say at federal especially when decision effect us negatively. As for the land lets not get bogged down the negotiators will come up with a figure so theres no point arguing but 18% does not allow for share state owned land before 1974.

The kibrisli privately owned lands were only 12%.
Mind you the Kypreoi privately owned lands were also much less than their percentage population.
Although I also agree with BBF as the only possible solution, i have to warn everybody it's going to be costly. Imagine now the Kibrislis being 1/5th of the population having to raise taxes to pay all their public servants + all those who on Federal level will be in equal numbers with the Kypreoi.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyro well done...respect.

For the fact that we are all paranoid?
Thank you I knew that all along.

[Jerry]

From the above post you obviously do not believe the TCs have any rights as a community but only as individuals, a minority in a GC majority state. There is a big problem with this viewpoint, you are disregarding internationally accepted agreements that clearly support TCs are not a minority but a 30% valid partner on this island. Off course you want to erase this right, disregard it, throw it in the bin because its does not serve your purpose of enforcing your numerical advantgae to turn us into just another minorty in a GC state. What you have to realize is that 1974 changed Cyprus forever and leaders all over the world including your own have accepted that any solution will be based on a BBF model, thats what being negotiated right now. The current climate backs me up 100% and shows that we are not just a minorty but a partner on this island that cannot just be disregard or ignored, we want to rule ourselves and not be dominated by the GC population. Of course you will have problems understanding this because its not what you want but you must try to understand its called middle ground between enosis and taksim, time you started to realize this as it would help towards creating a climate where we wcould begin to trust build confidence and a future together.

No, they have rights both as individuals and as a minority community. As for "disregarding internationally accepted agreements " are you being serious? Is that the same agreement whereby Turkey guaranteed the territorial integrity of Cyprus, it's not a bloody pick and mix sweet shop you know! Ignore the Zurich agreement for a moment, can you logically explain why one fifth of the population should be considered as politically equal to the remaining four fifths?

As for "the middle ground between enosis and taksim", you are joking, you have achieved partition even if we end up with a federated State, what have the Greek Cypriots got?

[Lordo]

come again, you said what. they have minority rights you say - you were born a peasant and you will die one you ignorant c##t. pick and mix shop is your speciality you stupid arshole. just see what is going on in the south.

[kurupetos]

come again, you said what. they have minority rights you say - you were born a peasant and you will die one you ignorant c##t. pick and mix shop is your speciality you stupid arshole. just see what is going on in the south.

Welcome back, cousin.

Don't worry about the south, worry about Turkey because the Russians are coming to kick your mama's sorry arse.

[Jerry]

come again, you said what. they have minority rights you say - you were born a peasant and you will die one you ignorant c##t. pick and mix shop is your speciality you stupid arshole. just see what is going on in the south.

Not worth a reply.

Oh bugger I just did.

[Viewpoint]

From the above post you obviously do not believe the TCs have any rights as a community but only as individuals, a minority in a GC majority state. There is a big problem with this viewpoint, you are disregarding internationally accepted agreements that clearly support TCs are not a minority but a 30% valid partner on this island. Off course you want to erase this right, disregard it, throw it in the bin because its does not serve your purpose of enforcing your numerical advantgae to turn us into just another minorty in a GC state. What you have to realize is that 1974 changed Cyprus forever and leaders all over the world including your own have accepted that any solution will be based on a BBF model, thats what being negotiated right now. The current climate backs me up 100% and shows that we are not just a minorty but a partner on this island that cannot just be disregard or ignored, we want to rule ourselves and not be dominated by the GC population. Of course you will have problems understanding this because its not what you want but you must try to understand its called middle ground between enosis and taksim, time you started to realize this as it would help towards creating a climate where we wcould begin to trust build confidence and a future together.

No, they have rights both as individuals and as a minority community. As for "disregarding internationally accepted agreements " are you being serious? Is that the same agreement whereby Turkey guaranteed the territorial integrity of Cyprus, it's not a bloody pick and mix sweet shop you know! Ignore the Zurich agreement for a moment, can you logically explain why one fifth of the population should be considered as politically equal to the remaining four fifths?

As for "the middle ground between enosis and taksim", you are joking, you have achieved partition even if we end up with a federated State, what have the Greek Cypriots got?

Interesting that you have not progressed after so many years, the intervention imho was warranted, what you havent grasped is that we could not resolve our differences to this day and found that we both wanted different things, the agreed middle ground is BBF this is not being disputed it has been accepted and the basis for the negotiations even today...do you realize this fact? If you havent then you are in for a big shock as there is nothing else being offered.

[Mustiejodu]

Excellent factual account of the role of the Turkish Cypriots in instigating the troubles on the island.

Setting the record straight over the troubles of 63-64

By Philippos Stylianou

I GAVE A lot of thought as to whether I should respond to my old Enosis colleague and dear friend Loucas Charalambous who, in a recent comment in the Sunday Mail, tried to justify the secret Turkish Cypriot designs in 1963 to break away from the newly founded Republic of Cyprus and set up a separate entity.

In the end – rather than continue harping on the deliberate myth of “bad Greeks-poor Turks” as Loucas Charalambous, of all people, is doing – I decided that setting the record straight about what happened back then is in the interest of permanent peace on the island. For no solution, however firm and elaborate it might be, can last if one of the parties feels that the other has wronged, cheated, compelled or humiliated it. I shall come back to this but first I want to refer to Charalambous’ analysis (sic) of the subversive Turkish Cypriot plan, dated September 14, 1963 and signed by the leaders of the Turkish Cypriot community, Fazil Kutchuk and Rauf Denktash, both high officials of the Republic of Cyprus at the time.

Charalambous asserts, without offering any proof, that this plan for the violent break-up of the Republic was meant to counter existing hostile Greek plans against the Turks and further maintains that everything the Turks did in Cyprus was a reaction to Greek Cypriot aggression. “When there is a quarrel, the responsibility belongs to the one who started it,” he writes.

The writer’s views and arguments have been savaged by many website commentators, who proved themselves better informed than Charalambous by showing things to be the other way around through the use of audiovisual documents. A much earlier though undated, Turkish Cypriot secret document found in the Turkish Cypriot Agriculture Minister Fazil Plumer’s office explicitly sets out the joint partitionist policy of the Turkish Cypriot leadership and Ankara, and there are sensational confessions by the perpetrators themselves. You see, when the Turks realised that they had pulled it off and there was no way for the Greeks to redress the situation, they began jointly and severally to speak out and claim historical laurels.

Rauf Denktash for one, the “secret” political leader of the TMT organisation, revealed in an interview that it was he who gave the order for a bomb to be planted at the Turkish Information Office in Nicosia as early as June 2, 1958, in order to blame it on the Greek Cypriots and start a pogrom against them under the protective indifference of the British colonial government. That was the beginning of the refugee problem in Cyprus, since hundreds of Greek Cypriot families were then expelled from their homes by the fanatical Turkish mob. Denktash also revealed that the blowing up of the Bairaktar and Omeriye mosques on March 25, 1962 was the work of his men and not that of the Greek Cypriots as had been thought for decades. Charalambous is forgetful of these incidents, although his memory does not fail him when it comes to an alleged Greek Cypriot provocation in December 1963. Indeed, he displays total amnesia about events that clearly prove who started it first in Cyprus.

Even the declaration of independence was stalled for some time because on October 18, 1959 the Turks were caught red-handed smuggling arms and ammunition to Cyprus on a naval craft converted into a fishing boat. The crew of three, sergeant-major Resat Yavus of the Turkish army and two staff of the Turkish Defence Ministry, were sentenced to one year imprisonment by the British who still ran Cyprus as a colony. The last act of the British governor Sir Hugh Foot before leaving the island was to expel all three, back to Turkey to continue their gun-running. They were not the only ones, of course. According to the Turkish daily Milliyet (June 11, 1995) between January 1959 and September 1960, enough arms had been smuggled into the island to equip 5,000 Turkish Cypriots.

In the face of these revelations, it looks historically safer to say that it was the Turks who started it first and not the Greek Cypriots who were reacting to Turkish acts and designs.

On a personal note, I was not here during the 1963-1964 events. In mid-1961, my father had a row with a Turkish Cypriot colleague of his, who made a throat-slitting gesture and told him: “The time is drawing nigh for you Christians!” My father told his family there was going to be trouble and at Easter 1962 we all went to London. We stayed for 11 years, returning in time for the Turkish invasion.

The military and political plan outlined in Plumer’s document did not only turn against the Greek Cypriots, but also against those Turkish Cypriots who might oppose them. For starters, it passed the death sentence on two outspoken critics of the Turkish Cypriot leadership, Aihan Hikmet and Ahmet Gurkan, editors of the local Cumhuriyet newspaper: “If they don’t believe in the existence of the national cause, they must be silenced,” decreed the Turkish Cypriot plan. And silenced they were with a hail of bullets on April 23, 1962 when they promised to publish the names of those who had been blowing up the mosques. The catalogue of opponents thus silenced is a long one and spans not only the early years of independence but subsequent ones up to recent times: Greek Cypriot Costas Misiaoulis and Turkish Cypriot Dervis Kavazoglou, fellow trade unionists, were shot dead in their car on April 11, 1965; Greek Cypriot Kurdish activist Theofilos Georgiades was assassinated on March 20, 1994 and Turkish Cypriot journalist Kudlu Adali on July 6, 1996, to name the most important ones.

One of the things that struck me on reading bloggers’ comments in the Cyprus Mail is how impermeable some Turkish Cypriots are to hard evidence about the darker side of their history. Yet they don’t lack reason or sensitivity. A few years ago they were shocked when a Turkish actor, Attila Olgac, described on television how during the 1974 invasion he shot Greek Cypriot POWs with their hands tied behind their backs. Likewise in 2009 when the film Guz Sancisi (Autumn Sorrow) about the pogrom against the Greeks of Constantinople in 1955 was screened, the audiences came out of the cinemas with tears in their eyes, saying they never thought their fathers could do things like that.

It is high time the Turkish Cypriots found the honesty and the courage to articulate audibly and solemnly their remorse and regret for the ills the expansionist policy of Turkey and the partitionist policy of their leaders have brought to this island. It is their turn to apologise to the Greek Cypriots if they really mean to live in peace with them. For if they choose to stick to the myth that they are the victims, it will only be an excuse for them to continue occupying our houses and properties. On account of the Greek Cypriots the Turkish Cypriots became free citizens in 1960 and European citizens in 2004. They are wrong if they believe they can now become a state by themselves. All they will have achieved if they persist in this course is to become perpetual usurpers.

Unfortunately, people like Loucas Charalambous are not helping them make the right decision.

http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/03/09/setti ... -of-63-64/

Wake up.by keeping your head in the sand and not accepting the truth will not change anything .