Cyprus-Forum.com

[kurupetos]

Let us see. UBP (Eroglu's part), DP (Denktash's party), the Grey Wolves, DHKO, EDEK, The European Party, the Greens and ELAM have now decided to unite in order to present a common front against solution. They shall not pass. Not this time friends. Chin up as we march for a free, federal Cyprus, where the scum from both communities will eventually find themselves in the dustbin of history.

Prepare to lose again. You waited in the fridge all these years, but soon you will be back inside it.

Don't worry Vlad will eat the pig soon.

[Pyrpolizer]

I had to wait until Monday for the final joint statement to be signed before expressing my views in the forum. Thank God there was no paragraph "8", so things got easier for me, but still I had other things to do in the meantime until today. Anyway here I am again J

Looking back, the only person who expressed his own views in a point by point manner was erolz66 so I will start with my comments on this first.


1"Personal vested interests that prohibit any kind of settlement."

I can think of 3 kinds of such interests a) those that are related to exploitation of illegally acquired properties. b) those who will lose their jobs because of the new status, mainly military personnel. c) Non refugees who "theoretically" have nothing to lose with the continuation of the status quo so why should they take any risk in seeking a solution.

The question is
a)are those local vested interests stronger than the local interests in finding a solution? The answer is definitely no.
b)Are those LOCAL vested interests stronger than FOREIGN interests?. Be it the Interests of Turkey, the USA, UK, Nato, EU, etc etc. The answer is again no
c)Is there a way to limit the % those local vested interests will have in the final referenda? Of course there are! E.g prohibit the settlers from voting, offer them financial compensation for leaving before the referenda, offer military men to continue their careers in Greece or Turkey etc etc.and finally d)Will those local vested interests de-rail this effort as well? The answer is: They already switched on the engines, imo they will switch them off pretty fast. Remains to be seen.

2)"50 years with no result".
I agree. The new factor though is called "hydrocarbons" It always produced results everywhere on the planet, why not in Cyprus? (remember Iraq’s invasion in Kuwait?)

3)The majority of GCs ever accepting the political equality with the TCs… if those on this forum are in any way representative.

I don’t know how representative this forum is. Whenever I tried to discuss this matter either on the forum or outside, I realized that both the Kypreoi and the Kibrislis have very funny ideas of what it really is. Regardless of that, the Kibrislis like it a lot, contrary to the Kypreoi. The question you have to ask though is whether this is a priority issue for the Kypreoi or not. It is not, and it will become a non issue once the Kypreoi get to understand what it really is.


4) What if the rulings of the Federal Supreme Court get ignored, like Makarios did in the 60’s…

The answer is very simple: The supreme court of the 60s had a totally different jurisdiction than the one the Federal Supreme Court will have. In Fed United Cyprus, the ultimate law will be the Federal constitution which will assign residual powers to the states. The states will have to make laws to exercise those residual powers and the Fed State will also have to make laws to exercise it’s non residual powers within the states. The Federal Supreme Court will simply decide when there is dispute on the particular matter of encroachment of laws. The consequence of ignoring the Federal Supreme Court’s decision will also be very simple: The constituent state will not be able to function (better say exercise it’s power on theat particular matter)! The alternative is to function with "illegal" laws, and we all know what that would mean at ECHR or other EU courts. As simple as that….

I will revert with my views on the comminique later on today… I hope

[Pyrpolizer]

My comments on the joint statement

1. The status quo is unacceptable and its prolongation will have negative consequences for the Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. The leaders affirmed that a settlement would have a positive impact on the entire region, while first and foremost benefiting Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, respecting democratic principles, human rights and fundamental freedoms as well as each other’s distinct identity and integrity and ensuring their common future in a united Cyprus within the European Union.

I consider this paragraph to be more of a sauce rather than anything else. However Anastasiades tried to capitalize on this last night on TV saying "it is unacceptable because our properties are getting sold, the settlers increase in numbers etc etc" .The truth is each side has it’s own reasons as to why it is unacceptable…

2. The leaders expressed their determination to resume structured negotiations in a results-oriented manner. All unresolved core issues will be on the table and will be discussed interdependently. The leaders will aim to reach a settlement as soon as possible and hold separate simultaneous referenda thereafter.

Another sauce here, except the word "interdependently". It was about time. Many core issues are in fact interdependent and discussing them in a separate manner as it was the practice so far was simply wrong.

3. The settlement will be based on a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation with political equality as set out in the and the High Level Agreements. The united Cyprus, as a member of the United Nations and of relevant Security Council Resolutions the European Union, shall have a single, international legal personality and a single sovereignty which is defined as the sovereignty which is enjoyed by all members States of the United Nations, under the UN Charter and which emanates equally from Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. There will be a single united Cyprus citizenship, regulated by federal law. All citizens of the United Cyprus shall also be citizens of either the Greek-Cypriot constituent state or the Turkish-Cypriot constituent state. This status shall be internal and shall complement and not substitute in any way the united Cyprus citizenship.
The powers of the federal government and like matters that are clearly incidental to its specified powers, will be assigned by the constitution. The Federal constitution will also provide for the residual powers to be exercised by the constituent states. The constituent states will exercise fully and irrevocably all their powers free from encroachment by the federal government. The federal laws will not encroach upon constituent state laws within the constituent states’ area of competences and the constituent states’ laws will not encroach upon the federal laws within the federal government’s competences. Any dispute in respect thereof will be adjudicated finally by the Federal Supreme Court. Neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other.


This paragraph is full of issues. I believe it contains EVERYTHING that the Kypreoi and the Kibrislis ever wanted. The most important issue however that makes it totally different from the Anan Plan is how the Federation will be formed. It will be formed from the Federal constitution. Not from any occupied areas or Roc controlled areas. Obviously there will be no separate constitutions either like the ridiculous thing that we had in the Anan Plan of the Kibrisli side drafting a constitution on the name of Ataturk LOL. There will be no separate flags, neither separate national anthems. Most probably the states will not be able to sign international agreements either. Everything will emanate from the Federal Constitution. The Federal States will simply exercise residual powers that the Fed Constitution will give them.
There is some similarity with what the Anan Plan regarding the hierarchy of laws and this is reflected on the issue of no "no encroachment". The Anan Plan stated that there was no hierarchy of laws between the Fed Laws and those of the constituent states. The problem with the Anan Plan was the way those states would be formed, the way they would issue and practice laws and the way the Fed State would do the same. With the Anan Plan we would simply have 3 totally independent authorities in a 3 different countries like fashion! While the matter of independence between the Fed State and the States is still maintained with this "no encroachment" clause each of the 3 is obliged to act and issue laws as per Federal constitution while all matters related to the single Sovereignty, Single citizenship, and Single international personality will be assigned to the Central Fed State. It is obvious here that the Central Fed State will supervise the constituent states as to whether they act in accordance to it’s laws. I foresee that the majority of "encroachment cases: that will be brought to the Fed supreme court will be of the Fed State Vs the States. And guess who will be right most of the times.

With this new approach the States (which can hardly be called constituent anymore) get all their powers from the Federal constitution, retain a lot of independence in exercising their powers, which power however is still residual. The whole thing imo could even allow the possibility of the system to evolve into a stronger Federation over time or even a unitary state.

On the matter of Sovereignty that I spent so much time trying to explain in previous posts
The statement says it "emanates equally from Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots".
Equally could of course mean 50-50. In reality in here it means 100% from the Greek Cypriots, 100% from the Turkish Cypriots and 100% from all other legal Cypriot people be it Armenians Latins etc. In other words we will ALL assign our group human right to self determination to a state with single Sovereignty. And as per usual this Sovereignty translates as to "we assign a state to act for the good of all of us"

4. The united Cyprus federation shall result from the settlement following the settlement’s approval by separate simultaneous referenda. The federal constitution shall prescribe that the united Cyprus federation shall be composed of two constituent states of equal status. The bi-zonal, bi-communal nature of the federation and the principles upon which the EU is founded will be safeguarded and respected throughout the island. The Federal constitution shall be the supreme law of the land and will be binding on all the federation’s authorities and on the constituent states. Union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession or any other unilateral change to the state of affairs will be prohibited.

Very important statements complimentary to the previous ones. They make it clear that the Federation would be similar to all known stable Federations around the world.

5. The negotiations are based on the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

6. The appointed representatives are fully empowered to discuss any issue at any time and should enjoy parallel access to all stakeholders and interested parties in the process, as needed. The leaders of the two communities will meet as often as needed. They retain the ultimate decision-making power. Only an agreement freely reached by the leaders may be put to separate simultaneous referenda. Any kind of arbitration is excluded.

7. The sides will seek to create a positive atmosphere to ensure the talks succeed. They commit to avoid blame games or other negative public comments on the negotiations. They also commit to efforts to implement confidence building measures that will provide dynamic impetus to the prospect for a united Cyprus.

OK no comments for paragraphs 5, 65 and 7.
In a nutshell the joint communique is an excellent starting point, it will help waste as much time as possible, and will will killing nonsense and funny ideas like those Eroglu has in the past for 2 air spaces 2 EEZs and all that.
I believe the Eroglus and Denktashes should have had their shock of a century after this. I also beleive Eroglu will be forced to resign soon.

[bill cobbett]

Thx for the above Pyro... food for thought for all of us... there's a lot to go through.

[Pyrpolizer]

The important thing is that we are on track on how to form this new United Federal Cyprus Bill.
This is just one of the many issues and the details have not yet finalized.
There MANY other VERY important issues for the Kypreoi with the number one in my opinion being that of properties.
If there is any mambo jumbo on this issue, and the Kypreoi lose even part of their legal rights on their properties we can kiss goodbye any solution. Other important issues like territory percentages, security, settlers, the powers of the Central Fed state itself are still pending...

[Lordo]

then kiss the agreement goodbye now. few weeks back he was asked if everyone will go back to their properties and he said it was not practical. he will not even be asking for that. unless you mean compensation rather then right to return and then we are in business.

[bill cobbett]

then kiss the agreement goodbye now. few weeks back he was asked if everyone will go back to their properties and he said it was not practical. he will not even be asking for that. unless you mean compensation rather then right to return and then we are in business.

That isn't what Pres A has ever said. What he has said is that he is insisting for a majority to return.

[Pyrpolizer]

then kiss the agreement goodbye now. few weeks back he was asked if everyone will go back to their properties and he said it was not practical. he will not even be asking for that. unless you mean compensation rather then right to return and then we are in business.

Do you know what right of ownership is?
it is I WHO OWN something who will decide what to do with it, not YOU who holds it illegally because someone gave you points at a Denktashes supermarket, and you believed him.
And by the way be prepared for Turkey to kiss you goodbye, because SHE DOESN"T WANT TO BE YOUR PATRON ANYMORE.

[Maximus]

Lordo,

The 'settlement' must benefit, be just and viable for the GC and TC. The TC federated state will take on all assets and all liabilities of the GC federated state, and vise versa.

The more people that can go back to their homes and by respecting everyone's right to property, the less that will be paid out in compensation. Where are you or we going to find this new money from?

Are you putting the interests of those who are out to exploit the situation first?

[Lordo]

then kiss the agreement goodbye now. few weeks back he was asked if everyone will go back to their properties and he said it was not practical. he will not even be asking for that. unless you mean compensation rather then right to return and then we are in business.

That isn't what Pres A has ever said. What he has said is that he is insisting for a majority to return.

he said no such thing, the question was about all refugees to their homes by one of your bum chums over at gc pretending to be lobby for cyprus fascist group you are administering charluimu. the question was very specific and and the answere very short. nope he said not practical after all these years.

when it comes to majority return, i agree with you they should be able to but it is too late. 2004 you had it and refused. now all you will get is varosa. omorfo is out and i suspect most of the villages below magusa highway too.