Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

GR, i hear what you say about the UN resolutions, but really file, do you think the corrupt UN even gives a fuck about them?

The existence of UN resolutions pertaining to the CyProb and indeed Cyprus’ UN membership and official sovereign status, should NOT be taken lightly because:

1. They are what prevented Turkey from being able to annex the occupied territory all these years.

2. They are what prevented Turkey from attaining recognition of the occupied territory all these years.

3. They are what preserved the RoC’s government as the sole legal representative of this island all these years.

4. They are what have been forcing Turkey to negotiate with the RoC as opposed to just getting their way unhindered all these years.

The list goes on and on… and God forbid if we ever sign our solid status away in exchange for some vague, undemocratic, community-level pseudo banana status that will open Pandora’s box to Turkish abuse and strife for the next 1000 years if we last that long!

Wake up Cypriot… you’ve got GOLD in your hands today so don’t ever trade it in for bronze for it will surely spell your END!

[Get Real!]

And btw, to those of you who undermine the UN’s blessings…

Have a guess what the enemy is going to push to attain once you put your signature on the dotted line that renders the sovereignty of the RoC a “rebirth”…

THE UN’S SEAL OF APPROVAL WHICH THEY’LL SHOVE RIGHT IN YOUR FACE!

And they’ll go from 40 years of undermining the UN’s decisions to ELEVATING them to the highest order overnight because NOW they’ve got what they’ve always wanted and you stupidly gave it to them!

[B25]

Ok noted.

[Pyrpolizer]

GR, i hear what you say about the UN resolutions, but really file, do you think the corrupt UN even gives a fuck about them?

The existence of UN resolutions pertaining to the CyProb and indeed Cyprus’ UN membership and official sovereign status, should NOT be taken lightly because:

1. They are what prevented Turkey from being able to annex the occupied territory all these years.

2. They are what prevented Turkey from attaining recognition of the occupied territory all these years.

3. They are what preserved the RoC’s government as the sole legal representative of this island all these years.

4. They are what have been forcing Turkey to negotiate with the RoC as opposed to just getting their way unhindered all these years.

The list goes on and on… and God forbid if we ever sign our solid status away in exchange for some vague, undemocratic, community-level pseudo banana status that will open Pandora’s box to Turkish abuse and strife for the next 1000 years if we last that long!

Wake up Cypriot… you’ve got GOLD in your hands today so don’t ever trade it in for bronze for it will surely spell your END!

Sorry to disappoint you GR, I am not buying it.

Sovereignty stems from the very basic human right of self determination. There is absolutely no risk involved in exchanging the existing RoC sovereignty (that stems from the basic human right of ALL cypriots) with a sovereignty of a Federal United Cyprus. It will still prevent Turkey from annexing any part of Cyprus.The only con for the Kypreoi regarding this issue is that they currently enjoy the full benefits of Cyprus's sovereignty rights alone (without the Kibrislis that is) ONLY because of the illegal occupation . But there is a HIGH price for that:They are deprived of 37% of Cyprus and a huge part of their private lands and properties .Is this what you really want?

Similarly the occupied areas never achieved recognition and never will, not because the RoC holds full sovereign rights but simply because the Kibrislis in the occupied areas cannot extend their human right of self determination and individual sovereignty over a geographic region that does not belong to them. Think of it differently: Suppose the Kibrislis were the legal owners of say 90% of the private lands in the occupied. Do you have any doubt that today they would have a recognized state?

Please stop terrorizing the Kypreoi in here just because you have the ability to do so. You are doing a bad service to your country.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Pyro, I don't understand how on the one hand you can say this:

Sovereignty stems from the very basic human right of self determination.

Basically asserting that self-determination is a human right but then you go on to say it's not a human right but a right which is linked to ownership of property:

Similarly the occupied areas never achieved recognition and never will, not because the RoC holds full sovereign rights but simply because the Kibrislis in the occupied areas cannot extend their human right of self determination and individual sovereignty over a geographic region that does not belong to them. Think of it differently: Suppose the Kibrislis were the legal owners of say 90% of the private lands in the occupied. Do you have any doubt that today they would have a recognized state?

Personally, I think the most important factors are that ethnic cleansing has been carried out by a foreign entity over a UN member state which had and has recognized sovereign rights. That's why Turkey is so steadfastly refusing to recognize Cyprus' sovereignty.

But I agree with you if what you are saying is that the sovereignty of Cyprus is intact and independent of the 1960 Constitution (which can and should be rewritten to bring it in line with EU laws and democratic markers.)

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyro, I don't understand how on the one hand you can say this:

Sovereignty stems from the very basic human right of self determination.

Basically asserting that self-determination is a human right but then you go on to say it's not a human right but a right which is linked to ownership of property:

Similarly the occupied areas never achieved recognition and never will, not because the RoC holds full sovereign rights but simply because the Kibrislis in the occupied areas cannot extend their human right of self determination and individual sovereignty over a geographic region that does not belong to them. Think of it differently: Suppose the Kibrislis were the legal owners of say 90% of the private lands in the occupied. Do you have any doubt that today they would have a recognized state?

Personally, I think the most important factors are that ethnic cleansing has been carried out by a foreign entity over a UN member state which had and has recognized sovereign rights. That's why Turkey is so steadfastly refusing to recognize Cyprus' sovereignty.

Well in simple words: the right of self determination IS A BASIC human right. In principle any group of people possesses the right of self determination. The difficult part starts when that collective right wants to take a form, of let's say becoming a state. It may or may not violate other groups rights/wants. Isn't this what happened in Cyprus in the 60s? Both the Kyprislis and the Kypreoi had that right of self determination. We wanted to transform to Enosis or Taksim. And we finally compromised into becoming RoC.
When a group or groups of people chose to materialize their right of self determination into becoming a state (assuming there are no violations of other peoples/groups rights) in doing so, that state gets Sovereignty. When a state gets "Sovereignty" in this very specific way it translates into the will of the people/groups of people "to assign a higher Authority to act for the common good of all of them".

Needless to say that "sovereignty" may arise in other ways.


Now to answer your question highlighted above, while self determination is in fact a human right that applies to groups,there are limitations or restrictions in how that right could ever transform into a state with Sovereign rights. One of the very basic prerequisites is that the specific group must legally own the vast majority of lands and properties of the geographical region they want to make a Sovereign state.

The ethnic cleansing that you think is the reason why the occupied never got Sovereignty , resulted in acquiring lands and properties that - by vast majority- do not belong to Turkey or the Kibrislis legally. However the ethnic cleansing itself is not the reason. If the ethnically cleansed Kypreoi were much less, and the Kibrislis had legal ownership of the vast majority of lands and properties in the occupied they could easily obtain recognition and Sovereignty regardless of the ethnic cleansing they performed.

[B25]

So Pyro, by your analysis, it would seem the the asian community in Bradforf UK, could demand self determination because they do own 95% of the property there!
Same in Brixton and the Jamaicans!

Im not so sure that this thesis is correct.

[Get Real!]

Sorry to disappoint you GR, I am not buying it.

Sovereignty stems from the very basic human right of self determination.

The right of self determination is one of the most frequently misunderstood declarations (intentionally or unintentionally) promoted by the UN and has been abused by many separatists all over the world but when you look closely you’ll find that it refers to NATIONS as a whole and not minority groups within those nations!

“The right of nations to self-determination or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law, binding, as such, on theUnited Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms. It states that nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or interference which can be traced back to the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941”

It does NOT refer to special rights of minorities!

If anything “The right of self determination” FULLY SUPPORTS Cyprus’ case against Turkey!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination


This UN web page makes reference to the right of self determination with this quote…

“Whether this right is taken away by military intervention, aggression, occupation, or even exploitation, the world cannot condone its deprivation from any peoples in any region,”

Once again confirming my interpretation thereof.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2012/ ... 51.doc.htm

[Get Real!]

Hey Admin, can we please have a slightly LARGER basic font size for normal text? My eyes ain’t what they used to be…

[Pyrpolizer]

So Pyro, by your analysis, it would seem the the asian community in Bradforf UK, could demand self determination because they do own 95% of the property there!
Same in Brixton and the Jamaicans!

Im not so sure that this thesis is correct.

I think I already said that while the right exists and stems from basic human rights, it is not as simple as 1+1=2 to materialize it into something let aside form a Sovereign state. Things get extremely difficult if a State with sovereign rights already exists on top of it.
But even if a state exists is not impossible. We ve seen it happening in Ex-Yugoslavia, there is a high possibility of it happening in Turkey with the Kurds, etc etc.
In your case above these rights may extend upto the point of electing all Asians in their local Municipal Council.

Like I said before Sovereignty (under normal conditions) translates into "we assign a higher authority to act for the common good of all of us". What if within that Sovereignty you suffer from ethnic cleansing and discrimination? What if you are deprived of basic human rights?