Cyprus-Forum.com

[Demonax]

I thought I made it clear that the first outbreak of intercommunal violence was Turkish Cypriot atrocities committed against Greek Cypriots in the 1950s instigated by the TMT. Are you trying to deny this happened? Because the historical evidence is clear and has been confirmed by Denktash himself.

This is not the point demonax. Or not the point for me. Even accepting that claim that TMT 'started it' (itself not as clear cut as you would make out) but even accepting that, do you really think that TMT's objectives as laid out by you could have been achieved if the GC community had wanted independence and not enosis and had not resorted to the use of planned deception deceit and organised state sponsored illegal violence against the smaller weaker TC community (as laid out on the Akritas plan) as a means of removing the legal rights of TC as granted by the 60's agreements without their consent ?

It's not trying to establish who 'started it'. Just clarifying that the first outbreak of intercommunal violence was not in 1963.

As for the rest of your argument I'm sorry but I just don't accept the TC narrative of events. You continue to see the TCs as passive victims instead of protagonists in the continued pursuit of the Turkish objective of partition.

Further, in assessing the psychological climate within the Greek Cypriot community in 1963-64, two factors must be taken into account: the traumatic memory of the TMT atrocities of 1956-58 coupled with the divisive and unworkable elements of the 1960 constitution.

You insist on a narrative which ignores basic historical facts. You ignore the TMT insurrection, violence and expulsion of GCs from their homes going back to the 1950s, Turkish threats and overt designs for partition; as well as the blatant injustices of the 1960 constitution. You continue to see GCs as the prime instigators of violence when they were being assaulted and terrorised by a belligerent Turkey from without and their TC proxies within. And then you blame them for seeking a way out of this helplessness and terror by wishing to unite with Greece!

It's remarkable just what you have to pretend never happened in order to make the TCs passive victims of GC violence.

And now that GCs have no wish to unite with Greece and have united – for better or worse – with Europe, we are still being told by you that the island needs to be divided! But not because of 'enosis' but because GCs refuse to accept that TCs are wholly innocent victims!

It's just farcical what you guys come up with. Why not just be straight and stop trying to blame us for the fact that you want partition and have always wanted it?

[erolz66]

It's not trying to establish who 'started it'. Just clarifying that the first outbreak of intercommunal violence was not in 1963.

No it was not in 63 but then neither was it in 58 in the incident you refer to.

You continue to see the TCs as passive victims instead of protagonists in the continued pursuit of the Turkish objective of partition.

Not at all.

It's remarkable just what you have to pretend never happened in order to make the TCs passive victims of GC violence.

I do not pretend that things that happened never happened. Nor do I make out that TC were purely passive victims. It is however a fact that in the period 63 to 74 the TC community were predominantly victims and the GC controlled STATE were predominately aggressors and this is what made partition a realistic possibility and in the end an actuality.

And now that GCs have no wish to unite with Greece and have united for better or worse with Europe, we are still bring told by you, that the island needs to be divided! But not because of 'enosis' but because GCs refuse to accept that TCs are wholly innocent victims!

It's just farcical what you guys come up with. Why not just be straight and stop trying to blame us for the fact that you want partition and have always wanted it?

I am not blaming you alone for the situation of Cyprus today. I do however want you to accept the blame that IS due to you, for doing so makes reunification more possible and continued denial makes it less so. I do not want partition personally and I do not think most ordinary every day TC would have wanted or supported it in the absence of ENOSIS and the very real use of violence against them by GC in the pursuit of enosis. Even if we had as a community on mass only wanted partition and nothing else I do not think we could ever have achieved it anyway in the absence of the GC pursuit of ENOSIS by the means that it was pursued.

That there is no longer a widespread desire for enosis today amongst the GC community or leadership does not change the fact that an acceptance that to have tried to have forced enosis on a TC community with NO regard for that communities wishes after colonial rule in Cyprus, in the way it was done (up to an including using planned state sponsored illegal violence) was wrong , matters immensely to me today as a TC and directly affects my views on what is need for any potential solution going forward. If you still say today that there was nothing wrong in the way the GC community went about trying to achieve enosis historically and that all that the TC community suffered was the result of their own extremism alone and nothing to do with GCs, then the need for protections for the TC community in the form or political equality in any future settlement is material to me. By your denial of the realties of the past you FORCE me to require protections in any potential future. I find it stunning that you can not see this simple reality. The reality that how you chose to define the past materially affects how I as a TC see any future settlement.

[Lordo]

you boys still dont get it. we had a agreement signed and set up the roc and the first thing your cabinet ministers and president do is set up a plan to dismantle the republic. this is treason committed by your highest governmental officers, and here is demnagi talking about who started it and grui talking about 1571 and we are expected to trust you in any way for our future. good gosh sling your hooks boys else where there is no fish in pond.

[Demonax]

No it was not in 63 but then neither was it in 58 in the incident you refer to.

Indeed. The large number of Turks actively participating with the British security forces was unfortunate and the outcome inevitable. Do you not think that the British knew what they were doing by employing TCs as auxilary and special constables? So yes Turkish mobs attacked GCs in Nicosia and Famagusta throughout 1956 and 1957. And the Turks used false-flag operations to incite violence and riots against GCs throughout the island including in Paphos where three TCs who were killed by fellow TCs were falsely said to have been killed by GCs.

And there were other incidents. From 1956 on, the Turkish leadership instituted a boycott of Greek goods and services and forbade cooperation with Greek Cypriots at all levels, including participation in mixed trade unions. Those who deviated were denounced as traitors and punished: TC trade unionists were murdered, for example, for the crime of collaborating with their Greek Cypriot co-workers.

Also, the TCs at the instigation and with the encouragement of Turkey, embarked, beginning in January 1956, on organized rioting aimed at the destruction of Greek Cypriot property the aim of which was to foster enmity, thereby proving TC leader Kutchuk’s premise that coexistence had become impossible, making partition the only acceptable solution.

But it should be remembered that there was no GC retaliation to this provocation. As one historian notes:

What is noteworthy is that, despite the repeated, organized and violent rioting and destruction of their property by the Turks, the Greeks, although outnumbering the Turks by four to one, did not counter-attack or retaliate in any way. No Turkish property was threatened or damaged. In fact, on 3 February 1957, the Greek members of the Nicosia Municipal Council appealed to the Greek population to avoid at all costs any friction with the Turkish community.

I do not pretend that things that happened never happened. Nor do I make out that TC were purely passive victims. It is however a fact that in the period 63 to 74 the TC community were predominantly victims and the GC controlled STATE were predominately aggressors and this is what made partition a realistic possibility and in the end an actuality.

So even if you accept the role of the TMT, Turkey and the TC leadership in events leading up to the the 1963 violence we must now largely blame the GCs for events that occurred afterwards? Including 1974. Even though the intercommunal violence was all but over in 1968 and the two sides were negotiating until the Athens Junta decided to stage a coup to overthrow Makarios?

You quite chillingly lay the blame for the invasion, massacres and ethnic expulsions of GCs by Turkey in 1974, squarely on the GCs who, instead of arousing your empathy, you accuse of being to blame for events by manufacturing a wholly fictitious version of state sponsored massacres and violence for which there is no evidence. Just exactly how many TCs were killed during these ‘state-sponsored atrocities’ you hint at between 1968-1974?

And what exactly are you saying? That if there had been no Junta-inspired coup that Turkey was justified in invading the island anyway? This makes no sense. It’s just part of the usual TC propaganda lies and bullshit we have to put up with.

That there is no longer a widespread desire for enosis today amongst the GC community or leadership does not change the fact that an acceptance that to have tried to have forced enosis on a TC community with NO regard for that communities wishes after colonial rule in Cyprus…

After colonial rule ended, did Turkey, the TCs and the TMT abandon the goal of taksim? Of course not. Ankara’s endorsement of violence and the supply of arms to the Turkish Cypriots did not cease on the conclusion of the Zurich-London agreements in February 1959 but continued after the signing of those agreements, until the achievement of the final goal by the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974.

If you still say today that there was nothing wrong in the way the GC community went about trying to achieve enosis historically and that all that the TC community suffered was the result of their own extremism alone and nothing to do with GCs, then the need for protections for the TC community in the form or political equality in any future settlement is material to me.

And what should we demand in return for a TC apology for collaborating with Turkey to partition the island for the last fifty years, depriving us of our basic rights while you occupy and exploit our homes and land? What price should we extract from you for this astonishing act of treachery? The mind boggles...

[Lordo]

you can demand anything you like, there is no point having an agreement with swine who will turn around and ignore it and do as they wish whether it is legal or not.

[bill cobbett]

London, February 1958...

Video of a March on Downing Street for Partition under banners which read ...

"' Cyprus is Turkish and Will Remain "

" If Forced Turkey Will Step In "

" We Demand Partition "

" Taksim ! "

" Partition Now ! "

" Don't Delay Partition Anymore "

" Nothing But Partition ! "

" Partition or Death "

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/cypri ... yprus+1958

[Lordo]

its all bullshit and you know it. you are a clever boy. what action drove a coach and horses though the constitution assholecharlui.

never mind what happened in 58 that was before peace signed. you are asshole which ever way you look at it and you have burnt all bridges asshole. tcs will refuse any peace plan. taksim is the only choice now.

[bill cobbett]

its all bullshit and you know it. you are a clever boy. what action drove a coach and horses though the constitution assholecharlui.

never mind what happened in 58 that was before peace signed. you are asshole which ever way you look at it and you have burnt all bridges asshole. tcs will refuse any peace plan. taksim is the only choice now.

... and there we have it, from the horse's bum, as it were,... The target was Partition in 1958 and it remains Partition in 2013.

[Viewpoint]

Erol great posts, they are spot on precise and very informative but as you can clearly see from demons posts this is the level of intelligence, blindness and brain washed GC mentality which ensures that unification will never take place. He cant even put one sentence together that accepts their share of the blame saying we made a big mistake by trying to force enosis on the TCs triggering off taksim, his propaganda filled brain interprets the whole chain of events from 1960 to 1974 as if the GCs did not take part and that the TCs inflicted everything upon themselves,totally ridiculous and only goes towards fueling the mistrust between the 2 sides.

[Demonax]

Erol great posts, they are spot on precise and very informative but as you can clearly see from demons posts this is the level of intelligence, blindness and brain washed GC mentality which ensures that unification will never take place.

So you agree with erol that an apology from GCs would go a long way towards re-unifying the island with TCs accepting minority rights under a (contrite) GC majority?

Is that all you want then, VP? An apology in exchange for a democratic unified state?

Why didn’t you tell us sooner?