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21 december 1963

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Re: 21 december 1963

Postby Viewpoint » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:05 pm

Demonax wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Are you saying that the GC leadership wanted the 1960 constitution to work ? That they had no aims or desire or plans to see it undermined ? To my mind there was no viable route to partition, whatever TC extremists may have wanted or done, in the absence of GC state sponsored illegal terrorist acts against the TC community. It was the use of state sponsored paramilitary gangs by the GC leadership, as part of a pre determined plan to remove the rights of the TC community post 1960 (Akritas plan) that empowered the TC extremists and made their goal of partition a possibility at all.


I'm saying that by 1957 the Turks had formulated their political objective clearly: the partition of Cyprus, which they set out to achieve by:

• establishing a separate identity for the Turkish Cypriots;
• demonstrating that coexistence between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots was impossible, and that they must therefore be physically separated; and
• creating territorial division between the two communities which were interspersed throughout the island.

The above goals have persisted as the cornerstone of Turkish and Turkish Cypriot policy over the years. As Hayrettin Erkmen, a member of the Turkish cabinet at the time of the Zurich Agreements [1959] and foreign minister after the invasion of Cyprus in 1974, has revealed: ‘Turkey’s posture on Cyprus might appear to be variable, but actually it adheres to a specific line.’ And he goes on to explain that when the thesis that Cyprus should be returned to Turkey failed, the idea of taksim [partition] was upheld: ‘and later we came upon the formula of a Cyprus Republic which was a kind of taksim’. This objective was paramount in Turkish minds during the Zurich negotiations.

It should not be forgotten that the Turkish Cypriot attacks on the Greek Cypriots in 1956-1958 were the first instance of violence between the two communities. These left far deeper and more lasting scars than could have been anticipated.

In the words of Stella Soulioti’s Fettered Independence: Cyprus, 1878-1964; she describes clearly how Turkey and nationalists from the Turkish minority on Cyprus pursued a plan to partition Cyprus and instigated this through a campaign of violence aimed at stirring up of ethnic conflict on the island. Her conclusion on the events of 1963 are as follows:

So much distorted publicity has been given by the Turks in later years to the events of 1963-1964, and so much more successful propaganda made out of them, that public opinion has been blinded to the fact that intercommunal strife in Cyprus was initiated as early as 1956 by the Turks themselves, not by Greeks, and that in 1963-1964 the Turks were not – as they have tried to convince the world – merely passive victims of Greek Cypriot violence, but protagonists in the continued pursuit of the Turkish objective of partition.

In assessing the psychological climate within the Greek Cypriot community in 1963-64, the following factors (emanating from the events of 1956-58 coupled with the divisive and unworkable elements of the 1960 constitution) must be taken into account:

• the enduring fear struck in the hearts of the Greek Cypriots by the 1956-1958 Turkish attacks;
• the feeling of helplessness and humiliation caused by the fact that one-fifth of the population had succeeded in terrorizing four-fifths;
• the loss of life, destruction of property and ousting of hundreds of Greek Cypriots from their homes in Nicosia; and
• the realization that the Turkish Cypriots had emerged from the Zurich-London agreements with a manifestly unjust and disproportionate share, which they were quick to exploit to their even greater advantage.

It is important as a matter of historical truth that these facts be remembered.



When did the dream of enosis start and the formation of the terrorist group eoka? the pin of the hand grenade was in your hands and you pulled it...the rest is history.
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby Demonax » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:19 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Demonax wrote:

The above goals have persisted as the cornerstone of Turkish and Turkish Cypriot policy over the years. As Hayrettin Erkmen, a member of the Turkish cabinet at the time of the Zurich Agreements [1959] and foreign minister after the invasion of Cyprus in 1974, has revealed: ‘Turkey’s posture on Cyprus might appear to be variable, but actually it adheres to a specific line.’ And he goes on to explain that when the thesis that Cyprus should be returned to Turkey failed, the idea of taksim [partition] was upheld: ‘and later we came upon the formula of a Cyprus Republic which was a kind of taksim’. This objective was paramount in Turkish minds during the Zurich negotiations.


When did the dream of enosis start and the formation of the terrorist group eoka? the pin of the hand grenade was in your hands and you pulled it...the rest is history.


Poor effort, VP. You should try reading posts first before trotting out your usual feeble nonsense. :roll:
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby Viewpoint » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:38 pm

Demonax wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Demonax wrote:

The above goals have persisted as the cornerstone of Turkish and Turkish Cypriot policy over the years. As Hayrettin Erkmen, a member of the Turkish cabinet at the time of the Zurich Agreements [1959] and foreign minister after the invasion of Cyprus in 1974, has revealed: ‘Turkey’s posture on Cyprus might appear to be variable, but actually it adheres to a specific line.’ And he goes on to explain that when the thesis that Cyprus should be returned to Turkey failed, the idea of taksim [partition] was upheld: ‘and later we came upon the formula of a Cyprus Republic which was a kind of taksim’. This objective was paramount in Turkish minds during the Zurich negotiations.


When did the dream of enosis start and the formation of the terrorist group eoka? the pin of the hand grenade was in your hands and you pulled it...the rest is history.


Poor effort, VP. You should try reading posts first before trotting out your usual feeble nonsense. :roll:


Why not give us dates? why do you have a problem with providing exact informaiton that will show exactly that enosis was the dream that caused the divide of today...no enosis no divide....time to own up to your own mistakes.
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby Demonax » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:16 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Why not give us dates? why do you have a problem with providing exact informaiton...


Dates? Don't be an idiot. Cypriots had fought to liberate themselves from the Ottoman yoke going back to 1571. And then from British rule in 1878 after the Turks left.

The Ottoman remnants and their leadership on the island fought to perpetuate British rule. Then to partition the island once the British left.

I hope those dates are exact enough for you. :roll:
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby Viewpoint » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:57 pm

Demonax wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:Why not give us dates? why do you have a problem with providing exact informaiton...


Dates? Don't be an idiot. Cypriots had fought to liberate themselves from the Ottoman yoke going back to 1571. And then from British rule in 1878 after the Turks left.

The Ottoman remnants and their leadership on the island fought to perpetuate British rule. Then to partition the island once the British left.

I hope those dates are exact enough for you. :roll:


Its clear for all to see how your narrow mindedness works, you want to blame the Ottomans for the 1950s, if the 2 communities were living peacefully upto the 1950 then what happened to cause the explosion of 1974, if we try to analyze the situation according to your warped mindset then we have to go even further back than the Ottomans. You had you chance in the 1950s but you chose enosis and that exploded in your faces leaving the division of today. Time to man up, admit your mistakes and try to move forward.
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby erolz66 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:24 pm

So its pretty clear from this thread (to me at least) as to why I would not today support reunification based on TC simply being a minority within a unitary state and would require some degree of political equality of communities / federalism and bi-zonality :(
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby Demonax » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:28 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Its clear for all to see how your narrow mindedness works, you want to blame the Ottomans for the 1950s,


I thought I made it clear that the first outbreak of intercommunal violence was Turkish Cypriot atrocities committed against Greek Cypriots in the 1950s instigated by the TMT. Are you trying to deny this happened? Because the historical evidence is clear and has been confirmed by Denktash himself.
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby erolz66 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:40 pm

Really do not have the energy any more to keep going round and round these same issues any more but Demonax I will just ask

Demonax wrote:
• establishing a separate identity for the Turkish Cypriots;
• demonstrating that coexistence between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots was impossible, and that they must therefore be physically separated; and
• creating territorial division between the two communities which were interspersed throughout the island.


To what degree do you think the actions of your communities extremists / leadership and populace helped in the achievement of these aims and helped in making these aims desirable to not just extremists and leadership in the TC community but the general TC populace as well? TO what degree did the pursuit of ENOSIS rather than independence for example define and reinforce the concept that TC had a separate identity from GC ? To what degree did the use of STATE sponsored terrorists POST 60 by a larger more powerful GC community against the smaller weak TC community demonstrate that coexistence between the communities was impossible ? To what degree did the attacks by the larger GC community on the smaller weaker TC community lead to geographical separation of the two communities that previous were interspersed (have you read Packard's report on this period ?)

I am afraid my view remains the same. Yes there were TC extremists. Yes there were TC with an agenda to seek partition, pre 60 and post 60. However I do not believe they had any hope of achieving these aims or making them widely desired within the general TC populace without the GC desire and pursuit of ENOSIS pre and post 60, without the use of state sponsored terrorist attacks by the larger dominant GC community post 60 on the smaller weaker TC community. A simple general acceptance of this by the GC community and state, as I have already said, would do more to personally encourage me that we could go from where we are today to a single unitary state with little or no political equality of communities than anything else the GC community could do. Yet it would seem that this is still too much to ask and expect from the GC community in general and that is sad for all of us as Cypriots in my view.
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby erolz66 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:46 pm

Demonax wrote: I thought I made it clear that the first outbreak of intercommunal violence was Turkish Cypriot atrocities committed against Greek Cypriots in the 1950s instigated by the TMT. Are you trying to deny this happened? Because the historical evidence is clear and has been confirmed by Denktash himself.


This is not the point demonax. Or not the point for me. Even accepting that claim that TMT 'started it' (itself not as clear cut as you would make out) but even accepting that, do you really think that TMT's objectives as laid out by you could have been achieved if the GC community had wanted independence and not enosis and had not resorted to the use of planned deception deceit and organised state sponsored illegal violence against the smaller weaker TC community (as laid out on the Akritas plan) as a means of removing the legal rights of TC as granted by the 60's agreements without their consent ?
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Re: 21 december 1963

Postby Lordo » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:50 pm

Demonax wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Its clear for all to see how your narrow mindedness works, you want to blame the Ottomans for the 1950s,


I thought I made it clear that the first outbreak of intercommunal violence was Turkish Cypriot atrocities committed against Greek Cypriots in the 1950s instigated by the TMT. Are you trying to deny this happened? Because the historical evidence is clear and has been confirmed by Denktash himself.

the whole point of signing an agreement is that the past is now forgiven. having signed the agreement if you go ahead in trying to dismantle the states just goes to show that you have no brains asshole. did you really think that terkey would just sit by and let you do what you planned. asshole and double asshole boy. now go suck an egg.

and by the way just in case you are planning to sign a bbf agreement and then attack the north you will end up in the caves asshole.
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