Cyprus-Forum.com

[The subaltern]

Eroll66,

I do not know why I bother responding to you. I must say though that unlike the couple of mates you have here, you have something to say even if I do not share your views. Unfortunately you are like a broken record. Your needle is stuck in a groove and you cannot get out of it. You believe in your master’s voice be it BirdLife , CABS and I do not know who else.

In fact you just said that “ I am saying nothing more and nothing less than what Bird life Cyprus are saying” You are investing the whole of your intellectual capital on what Birdlife and CABS are saying? If these are your intellectual mentors and bankers you’ll be bankrupt! (I am assuming here that you support CABS as well)
These, as I mentioned before, are organizations conceived and organized in Europe, their philosophy based on European values, belief, politics, interests, attitudes towards others etc. They have very little understanding of those they are trying to reform. They do not even talk to them! They just try to impose their views through propaganda, dressed in pseudoscientific crap in order to give them an aura of respectability and authority. And when they are not very successful, they resort to character assassination and the like.

Now, if you were a student at a university and you said to your teacher: I am saying nothing more and nothing less on what someone else says, do you know what his response would have been? Do not rely on one source, go and do some more research and some more reading, be critical and then use your own judgment.

These organizations are undemocratic and socially divisive. Look at Cyprus as an example; they are trying to impose their views, unfortunately with the connivance of the Cyprus government, on a people that have been practicing a tradition for thousands of years without any effect on the species and without even having the decency of conducting rudimentary dialog or consultation with the practitioners; instead they call them all the names under the sun! Would they do such a thing in their homelands? They will be sued for defamation and character assassination. (Do not answer me with your usual indiscriminate trapping and the like)

In those countries, there are strong vested interests that will employ experts to compile studies to prove that their intrusion in whatever area will have negative economic, social, political and other consequences. They stop them in their tracks or minimize their actions to such an extent that they become impotent. The supporters of these NGOs if they insist in interfering, the police are sent in to have them arrested. In Cyprus the opposite happens; the NGOs behave like the police!
Look what is happening to the birds as a result of the farming practices, among others, in Europe. That’s where the root of the problem lays and not here in Cyprus. You said something, regarding this; oh it’s a complicated problem. No it’s not. There is organized opposition there. That’s what makes it complicated. You have to negotiate with the vested interests if you can, unlike what is happening with your actions in Cyprus.

You do not want me to continue do you?

And do not come up with your one line cut and paste responses!

I am writing a whole essay for you on just one aspect of your post with my bad English; one of your supporters makes fun of. (Infantile behavior I know)
Why am I doing it all this, you may wonder. I am doing it because I noticed that that you hold this idea, central to your perception of things, that these organizations are infallible and holier than thou, therefore whatever they say must be true and you base all your arguments upon this assumption.
Grudgingly you have conceded that there is a problem in the occupied part of Cyprus and that some reports have been compiled however incomplete. Now, if I may ask you: in what language are the reports written? Can I get hold of them on the internet? (I have done the leg work but without success) Who compiled them? Have you had a hand in compiling them? And if they have been published on the internet could you be so kind as to give me the address?

And finally would you answer the rest of the unanswered questions?

[miltiades]

What an educated fool !!!
What a bloody waste of an education Mr Plonker !

[GreekIslandGirl]

Now, if you were a student at a university and you said to your teacher: I am saying nothing more and nothing less on what someone else says, do you know what his response would have been? Do not rely on one source, go and do some more research and some more reading, be critical and then use your own judgment.

That's really interesting you brought this up. I remember one of my lecturers commenting on the difference between students from the West and his Oriental students being about just this decisive/divisive matter - intellectually mature western students seek, question and criticize, whereas, Asian students are more accepting as doctrinal whatever they are told. They tend not to question their (perceived) 'intellectual superiors'.

I wonder if that is what is at play here?

[The subaltern]

Now, if you were a student at a university and you said to your teacher: I am saying nothing more and nothing less on what someone else says, do you know what his response would have been? Do not rely on one source, go and do some more research and some more reading, be critical and then use your own judgment.

That's really interesting you brought this up. I remember one of my lecturers commenting on the difference between students from the West and his Oriental students being about just this decisive/divisive matter - intellectually mature western students seek, question and criticize, whereas, Asian students are more accepting as doctrinal whatever they are told. They tend not to question their (perceived) 'intellectual superiors'.

I wonder if that is what is at play here?

I wouldn't like to say, you may be right, but I think there is more to it than that!

[erolz66]

Unfortunately you are like a broken record.

Do you have a mirror anywhere ? Do you really think YOU do not sound like a broken record, traipsing out the same old BS over and over and over ?

These, as I mentioned before, are organizations conceived and organized in Europe, their philosophy based on European values, belief, politics, interests, attitudes towards others etc. They have very little understanding of those they are trying to reform. They do not even talk to them! They just try to impose their views through propaganda, dressed in pseudoscientific crap in order to give them an aura of respectability and authority. And when they are not very successful, they resort to character assassination and the like.

You post the above and accuse THEM of character assassination ? Once again the reality is that Birdlife Cyprus is an organisation predominately funded and run by CYPRIOTS. This is not rumour, or speculation or opinion it is just plain FACT. You can and will say till you are blue in the face that they 'conceived and organized in Europe' and 'have very little understanding of those they are trying to reform' because your propaganda requires it but doing so does not make your claims any more true.

Now, if you were a student at a university and you said to your teacher: I am saying nothing more and nothing less on what someone else says, do you know what his response would have been? Do not rely on one source, go and do some more research and some more reading, be critical and then use your own judgment.

And if you were a student at university and said to your teacher I refuse to even consider data gained from meticulous scientific study and dismiss it out of hand because those that produced it are organizations conceived and organized in Europe, their philosophy based on European values, belief, politics, interests, attitudes towards others etc and my political beliefs and agenda require me to dismiss their data out of hand and to do all I can to character assassinate them, he would call you a twat and he would be right.

These organizations are undemocratic and socially divisive. Look at Cyprus as an example; they are trying to impose their views, unfortunately with the connivance of the Cyprus government, on a people that have been practicing a tradition for thousands of years without any effect on the species and without even having the decency of conducting rudimentary dialog or consultation with the practitioners; instead they call them all the names under the sun! Would they do such a thing in their homelands? They will be sued for defamation and character assassination. (Do not answer me with your usual indiscriminate trapping and the like)

You just go on and on and on repeating the same old un truths and every time I point them out you just ignore this and start spouting them out again. Once more.

1. The way illegal trapping is done in Cyprus TODAY, with mist nets and recorded bird calls acting as lures has NO historical tradition going back 1000's of years. This is just FACT. Even then your argument is intellectually bankrupt in any case. Human kind has been burning hydro carbons ever since they first discovered fire. This is NOT a valid argument to say we should not worry about burning hydrocarbons TODAY.

2. To claim that Birdlife Cyprus have not had even rudimentary dialog or consultation with practitioners of hunting, legal and illegal is just not true. It is in fact a lie.

3. Birdlife Cyprus calls those who engage in illegal activity criminals, because that is what the word criminal MEANS. They highlight that in some areas illegal trapping activity is controlled by established criminal gangs that control all illegal activity in those areas because that is TRUE. You by comparison call those who fund and work for Birdlife Cypriots any number of names and your comrade in arms even goes on to suggest that 'perhaps' those CYPRIOTS who bank roll Birdlife Cyprus do so as some kind of tax dodge.

4. As for "Would they do such a thing in their homelands?" - they ARE in their own homeland ! How many times will you claim that Birdlife Cyprus is a 'foreign' entity against all actual reality ?

In those countries, there are strong vested interests that will employ experts to compile studies to prove that their intrusion in whatever area will have negative economic, social, political and other consequences. They stop them in their tracks or minimize their actions to such an extent that they become impotent. The supporters of these NGOs if they insist in interfering, the police are sent in to have them arrested. In Cyprus the opposite happens; the NGOs behave like the police!

Your ignorance is astounding. Firstly no one is stopping the illegal trappers from employing experts to produce reports that the benefits of their activities produce more social good than harm. Why do they NOT do this ? Because they know they have not a snow ball in hells chance of making such an argument. The legislation that makes trapping with sticks and mist nets illegal in Cyprus is EU driven legislation and applies across all EU nations. Yes a couple of nations on their entry did negotiate temporary derogations for certain activities but these are just that - temporary and Cyprus had that opportunity but decline to use it as it was at the time frying bigger political fish with its accession to the EU. Equivalent national organisations to Birdlife Cyprus exist in all EU member states and unlike in Cyprus in some of them they actually do have legal powers of entry and arrest in their own rights (the RSPCA in the UK for example). In Cyprus Birdlife Cyprus do not act like the police and the accusation is just untrue. They work WITH both the game fund and the police in the RoC and the SBA such that if and when they spot illegal activity they inform the relevant body to deal with it. They do not enter private property because to do so is illegal. They do not even remove or destroy those lime sticks or mist nets they find in their surveys. They call the game fund and THEY come and remove such because they have the legal right to do so.

Look what is happening to the birds as a result of the farming practices, among others, in Europe. That’s where the root of the problem lays and not here in Cyprus. You said something, regarding this; oh it’s a complicated problem. No it’s not. There is organized opposition there. That’s what makes it complicated. You have to negotiate with the vested interests if you can, unlike what is happening with your actions in Cyprus.

Issues like intensive farming, habitat destruction for urban development these are all activities that produce arguable social benefit that is offset against the harm they do. This is NOT true of illegal trapping which is exactly WHY interests vested in illegal trapping can not 'negotiate' a decriminalisation of their activites. I have made this point over and over and you just continue to ignore it and just start all over again.

You do not want me to continue do you?

No but you will anyway.

And do not come up with your one line cut and paste responses!

You claim I say X. When I cut an paste what I have actually said previous that shows I actually said the opposite to X, you then come back with 'do not come back with your cut and paste' as if you have some right to tell me what I can and can not do. Stop trying to make out things about me and what I have said that are not true (like I single out only the RoC) and I will have no need to 'cut and paste' to prove what you claim about me and what I have said is not true.

I am doing it because I noticed that that you hold this idea, central to your perception of things, that these organizations are infallible and holier than thou, therefore whatever they say must be true and you base all your arguments upon this assumption.

I do not say these organisations are infallible and holier than thou and therefore what they say must be true. I say they are more credible than you because they know what they are talking about and their reports are based on real hard data, meticulous accumulated. I know this to be true because I have been on these surveys, been shown how they are designed and how they are operated. Just as a I know your claims are NOT true (Birdlife Cyprus is a 'foreign' organisation, they falsify their data, they never talk to or consult with hunters and trappers, they have a political agenda, separate from and outside of their environmental one and on and on and on). Given what I know of them and what I know of you combined with what I see for myself with my own eyes and I make a critical evaluation as to who I think is the most credible, and the answer is not you.

Grudgingly you have conceded that there is a problem in the occupied part of Cyprus and that some reports have been compiled however incomplete.....

No not grudgingly - I have made that clear through out my participation in this discussion. I can PROVE this by copying and pasting the multiple times I have explicitly stated this previously, oh but I have been 'forbidden' by you from doing so. That you characterise the fact that through out the entire discussion I have repeatedly made it clear this is an island wide problem and not one isolated to the south as 'grudgingly conceding' just show how manipulative your are of actual truth to serve your agenda.

Now, if I may ask you: in what language are the reports written? Can I get hold of them on the internet? (I have done the leg work but without success) Who compiled them? Have you had a hand in compiling them? And if they have been published on the internet could you be so kind as to give me the address?

Well as if evidence was need that you do not even read my posts before regurgitating your same old BS over and over, then this is it. I have ALREADY posted a link to one. Shall I 'copy and paste' it again ? Or would expecting you to go and find it yourself and actually READ my post where it is be too unreasonable an expectation of you from me ? As an old university lecturer friend of my might say 'twat!'

[erolz66]

Now, if you were a student at a university and you said to your teacher: I am saying nothing more and nothing less on what someone else says, do you know what his response would have been? Do not rely on one source, go and do some more research and some more reading, be critical and then use your own judgment.

That's really interesting you brought this up. I remember one of my lecturers commenting on the difference between students from the West and his Oriental students being about just this decisive/divisive matter - intellectually mature western students seek, question and criticize, whereas, Asian students are more accepting as doctrinal whatever they are told. They tend not to question their (perceived) 'intellectual superiors'.

I wonder if that is what is at play here?

GiG one of your early contributions to this discussion was saying that reports of illegal trapping in the SBA's must be un true because how could anyone trap on a heavily guarded, militarily patrolled army base - showing a stunning ignorance not just of the subject you were pontificating about but also of your own country and a desire to show such ignorance to anyone who could be bothered to read your posts. What kind of cultural origin do you think this kind of intellectual rigor harks back to I wonder ?

[GreekIslandGirl]

GiG one of your early contributions to this discussion was saying that reports of illegal trapping in the SBA's must be un true because how could anyone trap on a heavily guarded, militarily patrolled army base - showing a stunning ignorance not just of the subject you were pontificating about but also of your own country and a desire to show such ignorance to anyone who could be bothered to read your posts. What kind of cultural origin do you think this kind of intellectual rigor harks back to I wonder ?

Why don't you show me exactly where you got confused? Because to the more discerning, I was questioning such possibilities:

The RoC expressed concern about these huge mesh curtains that the British Military use and was told they do not snare any birds! What a joke! And now we are told Millions of birds are caught in some mysterious meshes slang on "their land" by Cypriots?

You seem to keep missing the point. Finding it hard to believe people QUESTION!

I also recall you being confused because your mind told you something else to what I had written regarding the cock-fighting comparison, but I was too busy to correct you young pretender.

I think I know your (main) problem.

It would make life easier if we ignored you till you were fully baked.

[Jerry]

Cut the "educated" bullshit subbers, there's plenty of information about trapping in Cyprus from different sources if you care to look for them. Try this:-

Mr Kousiounos is a veteran police officer, working for the British base, who led that morning's 12-man Operation Freedom raid against rampant illegal bird trapping.

They saved 40 birds, made two arrests, and confiscated trapping paraphernalia.

But while they may well be smarter than the trappers, Mr Kousiounos says his unit is not large enough to eradicate the scourge. He estimates that there are some 100 ever-shifting trapping sites in Dhekelia - which covers 130.8 square kilometres - while his men can raid no more than a handful on any given morning.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/eu ... tory-birds

[GreekIslandGirl]

Cut the "educated" bullshit subbers, there's plenty of information about trapping in Cyprus from different sources if you care to look for them. Try this:-

Mr Kousiounos is a veteran police officer, working for the British base, who led that morning's 12-man Operation Freedom raid against rampant illegal bird trapping.

They saved 40 birds, made two arrests, and confiscated trapping paraphernalia.

But while they may well be smarter than the trappers, Mr Kousiounos says his unit is not large enough to eradicate the scourge. He estimates that there are some 100 ever-shifting trapping sites in Dhekelia - which covers 130.8 square kilometres - while his men can raid no more than a handful on any given morning.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/eu ... tory-birds

If ever there was a reason for the British to give up their "Sovereign Base Areas" to the RoC to administer, surely, even you must admit this was it, Jerry?

A "rampant" 40 birds saved out of the 3 Million that Erolz claims are caught must surely be something, eh?

[erolz66]

Why don't you show me exactly where you got confused? Because to the more discerning, I was questioning such possibilities:

You did not question if trapping was in fact possible on the SBA's, you literally declared such as 'Unbelievable!'

You seem to keep missing the point. Finding it hard to believe people QUESTION!

You do not question. You make false assertions based on no evidence what so ever.