Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

...it seems to me all the more important to remember the topic started with a story of a visit to a grave yard, where some nice people were met feeding cats, and where rude people expressed their view as well. the incident (and the debate which has been formed) in my mind only proves the need for a government free of any bias, actual or seen, and that as "Greeks" and "Turks" are not responsible enough to be trusted with wider issues than their own when it comes to the Cypriot Identity, as Individuals, Greek and Turk, as Citizens (and not Persons).

erolz, i am grateful to you, although i am ticked off with you, i dare to say i don't like you, but these are my personal feelings toward you, i still respect you.

...thought provoking, thank-you (again).

[Sotos]

Cancers can be cured sometimes but the chances are reduced if you waste your time with insignificant issues. The enemy of Cyprus is the cancer. Now the cancer is pointing to a pimple and saying "hey... look at what huge problem you got there mate!"

You can call me a cancer, blame me for the situation Cyprus is in today (whilst accepting no blame yourself) and it does not change the FACTS one bit. Illegal bird trapping as practiced in Cyprus today does real material damage to a number of endangered species and it is unnecessary an needless and could be pretty much stopped with a simple change in attitudes. That you would rather deny , distort and distract from this simple truth is your choice. I hope when as yet unborn Cypriots ask why such and such a species no longer exists and they and all them that come after will never get to see such species, you will answer honestly and say 'because when I could have done something easy and simple myself I chose to play politics and propaganda instead'.

Just listen to what you are actually saying. What you are actually saying is that a change in attitude by the mainstream of Cypriots in regards to illegal bird trapping and the damage it does might stop us solving the Cyprus problem, so lets not bother at all about it. Fuckwit.

What is the "easy and simple" thing that I can do? I don't hunt or eat those birds, I don't destroy their habitat. It is easy and simple to say that OTHERS should change their attitude. And that's the irony of the whole discussion with you because a change of YOUR attitude could solve a much bigger problem in Cyprus and yet you preach others about minor in comparison issues.

[erolz66]

What is the "easy and simple" thing that I can do? I don't hunt or eat those birds, I don't destroy their habitat. It is easy and simple to say that OTHERS should change their attitude. And that's the irony of the whole discussion with you because a change of YOUR attitude could solve a much bigger problem in Cyprus and yet you preach others about minor in comparison issues.

You can stop thinking and saying 'hey even if this is an issue, its not one to worry about compared to other issues' is what you can do as an individual. A simple change in attitudes across all Cypriot communities, akin to that in the UK with regards to drink driving from the 70's onwards would make a massive difference. This really is an issue where the smallest of individual action can make a real world difference.

Linking it to the wider Cyprus issue is just a distraction. You can claim that a simple change of attitude on my part and that of TC in general would solve the Cyprus issue but it is a lot more complex than the issue of illegal bird trapping. To me such linkage is just an excuse to not have to take any responsibility for the issue of illegal bird trapping and the damage it does. Actually working together across communities on environmental issues like these DESPITE our current differences and separation offers a glimmer of hope and a way forward in general. Which is exactly the kind of thing I have personally been involved in and given up my time too in the past. It seems you think it would be better for me to NOT have worked with Bird Life Cyprus, to have NOT worked on co operation between Bird Life Cyprus and Kuskor and better for me to not dare suggest that there is a real issue here and that we Cypriots have it in our own individual power to make it better ?

[miltiades]

Its a bit like the old boy at the cemetery informing me that there are people starving and you are feeding the cats !

I can do very little to help those on the breadline, the two are utterly unrelated, in the same fashion that the illegal trapping of birds can in any way be related or compared to the Cyprob.

[Sotos]

What is the "easy and simple" thing that I can do? I don't hunt or eat those birds, I don't destroy their habitat. It is easy and simple to say that OTHERS should change their attitude. And that's the irony of the whole discussion with you because a change of YOUR attitude could solve a much bigger problem in Cyprus and yet you preach others about minor in comparison issues.

You can stop thinking and saying 'hey even if this is an issue, its not one to worry about compared to other issues' is what you can do as an individual. A simple change in attitudes across all Cypriot communities, akin to that in the UK with regards to drink driving from the 70's onwards would make a massive difference. This really is an issue where the smallest of individual action can make a real world difference.

Driving drunk can kill innocent people... but even then the UK wouldn't have this campaign in the middle of World War 2! How much energy and time you dedicate to a problem depends on the priority of the problem compared to the rest.

Linking it to the wider Cyprus issue is just a distraction. You can claim that a simple change of attitude on my part and that of TC in general would solve the Cyprus issue but it is a lot more complex than the issue of illegal bird trapping.

It might be more complex but it is also far more important. And if we solve the big problems then we would be more justified to dedicate more time to solve the smaller ones.

To me such linkage is just an excuse to not have to take any responsibility for the issue of illegal bird trapping and the damage it does. Actually working together across communities on environmental issues like these DESPITE our current differences and separation offers a glimmer of hope and a way forward in general. Which is exactly the kind of thing I have personally been involved in and given up my time too in the past. It seems you think it would be better for me to NOT have worked with Bird Life Cyprus, to have NOT worked on co operation between Bird Life Cyprus and Kuskor and better for me to not dare suggest that there is a real issue here and that we Cypriots have it in our own individual power to make it better ?

In what way does it offer a "glimmer of hope"? Sorry... I just don't see it. The occupation is illegal (to say the least) and you think that forgetting this and working together is going to solve the problem? Then maybe the solution to illegal bird trapping is not to prosecute those who act illegally but to go to work together with them. Set up a few traps, eat some ampelopoullia and think that working together with them will solve the problem?

[The subaltern]

The various bird lovers are antisocial groups, extremists in reality, hell bent in imposing their views on the rest of society with out any consideration of the democratic processes; taking into consideration other peoples views or cultural practices is not in their agenda.

Through their propaganda and disinformation they try to influence the opinions of people not only here in Cyprus but through out the world with the aid of course of the foreign mass media printed and electronic.
Their ideas about the environment stem from a western perspective. That is from exactly the area where the environmental destruction is taking place therefore what they represent is culturally, politically, socially, emotionally foreign and W. European in its context and not at all representative of the Cypriot interests or society.

There are whole theories regarding this kind of western intrusion in other people’s countries on the pretext of environmental protection. Environmental issues will be the new areas of conflict in the very near future. The politicization of the environment is upon us already.

Yet Mr “errloz66”’s claim that his actions are devoid of political motives he is though very much mistaken. He is either naïve, misguided or not telling us the truth.
However, “errloz66” appears to be well versed in the propaganda department. Avoiding difficult questions, concentrating on the well worn once and play on the emotions of people e.g. illegal, criminal, indiscriminate, depletion of species and the like. Actually his views should come with a warning attached. “Reading this may seriously damage your perception of reality. Before you consume ask why and take it with a pinch of salt” and to paraphrase Gandhi, “do not let anyone walk through your mind with their dirty feet”.

Regarding bird trapping and politics; this is an environmental issue hatched in the west steeped in western thought, influenced by western attitudes beliefs historical preconceptions etc.
Their aim is to influence others in seeing the way they see things. This effort to influence perceptions IS a political act. Imposing once views over others renters one incapable in seeing with his own eyes but with the eyes of some one else’s.

There are of course agents or transmitters of this process; persons who for various reasons take the environmental mantle and uncritically transplant it into their own countries thus becoming themselves the agents of foreign ideas. We see it here with the bird champions foreign led of course; through their actions they have generated conflict within the Cypriot society and disrupted the smooth transition of tradition.
We have a very bad experience here regarding foreigners, supposedly “friends” meddling in the Cypriot affairs purportedly for our own good. Do we really need more of them?

I have two reports in front of me compiled by CABS and Friends of the earth. (Φίλοι της Γης) The one is foreign and the other Cypriot organisation.
The first: Spring 2012 Cyprus Bird Protection Camp. Field report 13/04-06/5/2012

The second: Field report: Autumn 2011 bird protection camp, 23 September- 2 October 2011.
I urge you to read both paying particular attention to the language, the tone of the reports, to whom they are directed to (They are both written in English, I cannon find neither in Greek.). I have neither come across any report mentioning our other part of the island, you know the occupied part. There is though a part that deals with bird trapping in the buffer Zone! Page 16 Field report 13/3- 6//5/2012 above. That’s how important the buffer zone is in bird trapping but not the occupied part of Cyprus!! Can you sense a political motive somewhere? Am I mistaken?

I urge any one who knows of a report about bird trapping/hunting in the north part of the island to pass me the information as I am very interested.
I have though located the “Kuskor” page but nothing at all about trapping in the occupied part of Cyprus.

Yet Mr. “Erloz66” claims that his actions are devoid of political motives. To repeat, he is either naïve, misguided, or lying. I do not know which of the three best describes him.
(I bet I am going to get a torrent of abuse like DDD, the expletives I leave out as it’s his domain Do not forget this is part of his strategy of undermining others views; a common enough ploy by amateurs and of those who run out of arguments.)

In fact I do not believe that any person anywhere wants skies with out birds and neither do the bird trappers. Has any one tried to talk to them? No!
Has any one tried to impose their views upon them with out even talking to them? Yes! That’s a political act.
Have uninvited foreign persons invaded Cyprus under the pretext of saving birds? Yes!
That’s a political act and rather a dangerous one.

The Independent newspaper in the UK in its title, 19/11/2012, declares: “Political row flares over “brutal slaughter” of three million birds a year in Cyprus” That’s to do with trapping in the British bases. Politics here are declared while on other occasions the political motive is hidden under the veil of bird protection. You will see it if you look closely.

And here’s a naked political one to be found in WWW. Cyprusscene.com with a picture of the harbour of Kyrenia.. The article is by Chris Elliot and is about bird trapping in the free part of Cyprus!!! Is this political at all?

And here’s another from the ftrnorthcyprus side run by (?) Foreign residents in the TRNC in an article dated 5/1/2014 by Keith Lloyd about “Migratory birds annual slaughter” you may get the impression going by the headline that it is about the occupied part of Cyprus; well you will be mistaken its about the free part. Is it political in any way? Make up your own minds.

Despite the above, should we cut off our selves from European ideas, since I have been so critical of Europe? The answer is no; again Gandhi is relevant here and I paraphrase again in order suit our situation. “I do not want my house to be walled on all sides and my windows to be staffed. I want ideas from other lands to be blown about my house freely but I refuse to be blown off my feet by any” What our

[Paphitis]

The various bird lovers are antisocial groups, extremists in reality, hell bent in imposing their views on the rest of society with out any consideration of the democratic processes; taking into consideration other peoples views or cultural practices is not in their agenda.

The vast majority of Cypriots would support the "bird lovers" and support the protection of the birds so you are wrong!

Through their propaganda and disinformation they try to influence the opinions of people not only here in Cyprus but through out the world with the aid of course of the foreign mass media printed and electronic.
Their ideas about the environment stem from a western perspective. That is from exactly the area where the environmental destruction is taking place therefore what they represent is culturally, politically, socially, emotionally foreign and W. European in its context and not at all representative of the Cypriot interests or society.

There is no propaganda at all.

The Western Media is not at all fixated on Cypriot Bird Trapping at all. They may be so on other more pressing issues such as Whaling, but certainly I think they have more important stories than Cypriot Bird Trapping to worry about.

There are whole theories regarding this kind of western intrusion in other people’s countries on the pretext of environmental protection. Environmental issues will be the new areas of conflict in the very near future. The politicization of the environment is upon us already.

I really don't think "Western Society" gives 2 tosses about Cyprus!

Cypriots on the other hand do and there are many groups within Cyprus that are working very hard to stop illegal Bird Trapping on the island.

Yet Mr “errloz66”’s claim that his actions are devoid of political motives he is though very much mistaken. He is either naïve, misguided or not telling us the truth.
However, “errloz66” appears to be well versed in the propaganda department. Avoiding difficult questions, concentrating on the well worn once and play on the emotions of people e.g. illegal, criminal, indiscriminate, depletion of species and the like. Actually his views should come with a warning attached. “Reading this may seriously damage your perception of reality. Before you consume ask why and take it with a pinch of salt” and to paraphrase Gandhi, “do not let anyone walk through your mind with their dirty feet”.

Yes there is absolutely no propaganda around this important issue and neither is it political or personal.

Regarding bird trapping and politics; this is an environmental issue hatched in the west steeped in western thought, influenced by western attitudes beliefs historical preconceptions etc.
Their aim is to influence others in seeing the way they see things. This effort to influence perceptions IS a political act. Imposing once views over others renters one incapable in seeing with his own eyes but with the eyes of some one else’s.

Environmental Issues are worldwide and not just in the West.

There are of course agents or transmitters of this process; persons who for various reasons take the environmental mantle and uncritically transplant it into their own countries thus becoming themselves the agents of foreign ideas. We see it here with the bird champions foreign led of course; through their actions they have generated conflict within the Cypriot society and disrupted the smooth transition of tradition.
We have a very bad experience here regarding foreigners, supposedly “friends” meddling in the Cypriot affairs purportedly for our own good. Do we really need more of them?

What absolute crap!

I have two reports in front of me compiled by CABS and Friends of the earth. (Φίλοι της Γης) The one is foreign and the other Cypriot organisation.
The first: Spring 2012 Cyprus Bird Protection Camp. Field report 13/04-06/5/2012

The second: Field report: Autumn 2011 bird protection camp, 23 September- 2 October 2011.
I urge you to read both paying particular attention to the language, the tone of the reports, to whom they are directed to (They are both written in English, I cannon find neither in Greek.). I have neither come across any report mentioning our other part of the island, you know the occupied part. There is though a part that deals with bird trapping in the buffer Zone! Page 16 Field report 13/3- 6//5/2012 above. That’s how important the buffer zone is in bird trapping but not the occupied part of Cyprus!! Can you sense a political motive somewhere? Am I mistaken?

They do not need to mention any part of the island.

They speak for the whole island and stand against illegal Bird Trapping wherever it is found. If the GCs are more active in RoC controlled areas then well done to them. To me it indicates that GCs are more sensitive about the environment these days than their TC counterparts.

I urge any one who knows of a report about bird trapping/hunting in the north part of the island to pass me the information as I am very interested.
I have though located the “Kuskor” page but nothing at all about trapping in the occupied part of Cyprus.

It exists! You have not looked into it enough.

Yet Mr. “Erloz66” claims that his actions are devoid of political motives. To repeat, he is either naïve, misguided, or lying. I do not know which of the three best describes him.
(I bet I am going to get a torrent of abuse like DDD, the expletives I leave out as it’s his domain Do not forget this is part of his strategy of undermining others views; a common enough ploy by amateurs and of those who run out of arguments.)

No abuse! But you are very misguided, paranoid and it is you that is being a little dishonest.

In fact I do not believe that any person anywhere wants skies with out birds and neither do the bird trappers. Has any one tried to talk to them? No!
Has any one tried to impose their views upon them with out even talking to them? Yes! That’s a political act.
Have uninvited foreign persons invaded Cyprus under the pretext of saving birds? Yes!
That’s a political act and rather a dangerous one.

That is not the issue! Bird Trapping is indiscriminate unlike the Gun of a hunter!

The Independent newspaper in the UK in its title, 19/11/2012, declares: “Political row flares over “brutal slaughter” of three million birds a year in Cyprus” That’s to do with trapping in the British bases. Politics here are declared while on other occasions the political motive is hidden under the veil of bird protection. You will see it if you look closely.

Once again, you do not post any links!

And here’s a naked political one to be found in WWW. Cyprusscene.com with a picture of the harbour of Kyrenia.. The article is by Chris Elliot and is about bird trapping in the free part of Cyprus!!! Is this political at all?

I wouldn't know anything about the website since you don't post the link!

And here’s another from the ftrnorthcyprus side run by (?) Foreign residents in the TRNC in an article dated 5/1/2014 by Keith Lloyd about “Migratory birds annual slaughter” you may get the impression going by the headline that it is about the occupied part of Cyprus; well you will be mistaken its about the free part. Is it political in any way? Make up your own minds.

It may be political for this difgy site, but you should not taint individuals working hard in RoC controlled areas whether GC or British with the same disgusting brush!

Despite the above, should we cut off our selves from European ideas, since I have been so critical of Europe? The answer is no; again Gandhi is relevant here and I paraphrase again in order suit our situation. “I do not want my house to be walled on all sides and my windows to be staffed. I want ideas from other lands to be blown about my house freely but I refuse to be blown off my feet by any” What our

You have cut yourself off from reality so never mind Europe!

[GreekIslandGirl]

In what way does it offer a "glimmer of hope"? Sorry... I just don't see it. The occupation is illegal (to say the least) and you think that forgetting this and working together is going to solve the problem? Then maybe the solution to illegal bird trapping is not to prosecute those who act illegally but to go to work together with them. Set up a few traps, eat some ampelopoullia and think that working together with them will solve the problem?

Perfect analogy.

[miltiades]

In what way does it offer a "glimmer of hope"? Sorry... I just don't see it. The occupation is illegal (to say the least) and you think that forgetting this and working together is going to solve the problem? Then maybe the solution to illegal bird trapping is not to prosecute those who act illegally but to go to work together with them. Set up a few traps, eat some ampelopoullia and think that working together with them will solve the problem?

Perfect analogy.

Crap. Chalk and cheese.
Illegal trapping of birds, cruelty to animals. indifference to animal welfare has FA to do with the Cyprob.

[GreekIslandGirl]

In what way does it offer a "glimmer of hope"? Sorry... I just don't see it. The occupation is illegal (to say the least) and you think that forgetting this and working together is going to solve the problem? Then maybe the solution to illegal bird trapping is not to prosecute those who act illegally but to go to work together with them. Set up a few traps, eat some ampelopoullia and think that working together with them will solve the problem?

Perfect analogy.

Crap. Chalk and cheese.
Illegal trapping of birds, cruelty to animals. indifference to animal welfare has FA to do with the Cyprob.

Aman reh Miltiades. No one is being indifferent to animal welfare. But some here are definitely indifferent to the welfare of a few hundred thousand Greek Cypriots whose habitat is being destroyed by the Turks. Sotos' perfect paradigm above demonstrates how hypocritical some people are when they suggest a "solution" for one problem (that suits them to fail) which they wouldn't apply to another similar scenario. That is, treat the villains well and share in their villainy.