Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

NO IT DID NOT!! The Treaty gave the right to preserve the status quo - i.e. help, in the example I gave above. Turkey misconstrued help as rape - and that is where today's illegality lies!

But to reestablish the status quo there had to be a bit of a rape eh… how else are you going to remove the other rapist sitting at the presidential palace and making declarations of authority?

Not really, because the coup never succeeded. The status quo was established within days.

In my analogy, the raping refers to the ethnic cleansing, pillaging, etc etc - to enforce a partition. None of that was necessary to preserve the status quo - those actions were directed at destroying the status quo.

The coup and subsequently the Greek government, collapsed as a result of the Turkish invasion in progress.

Had there been no Turkish invasion I doubt the coupists would've had any intentions of relinquishing power!

The coup would have failed because it did not have the support of the people, and Makarios was not killed as planned. But putting that to one side, I think there is a fair legal argument for intervention from the other Guarantor powers following the coup, but as I have said, only to establish the status quo. What Turkey did was destroy the status quo - the exact opposite, which makes Turkey's invasion illegal, whatever Greece did before. It is fairly simple GR. Similar to the concept of a breach of contract - there were two separate breaches, and therefore they can stand independently. One claim does not have to depend on the other.

[Paphitis]

That is quite naive.

The Coup survived for 7 years and it had the support of a considerable chunk of the Greek population.

In fact, it was probably the most functional Greek Governments in Greek history. Even to this day, Greeks will tell you that the Junta completed many infrastructure projects because of their iron fist.

[Piratis]

Logging in for a "quick" reply

First of all, the pseudo independence with the so called "guarantors" was not what Greece or what the vast majority of Cypriots wanted. It was something that was imposed on us by the British and the Turks. If the will of the Cypriot people had been respected then Cyprus would have been as secure as any other Greek island, Turkey would have no "guarantor" or any other rights in Cyprus, and none of the events of 1974 and later would have happened.

Coups happen in many countries (several times in Turkey) and a coup can never be an excuse for a unilateral foreign invasion. Turks use the coup to excuse their invasion, but as Simon correctly pointed out the "guarantor" powers had the right to intervene only to restore order and protect the independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus. The Turks did the exact opposite. It is sad that some non-Turks are accepting the lame Turkish excuses, something that no country in the world does.

Even though the coup can not by any means justify the Turkish invasion, it was of course a criminal action which is condemned (like is the case with every other coup against a democratically elected government). Those responsible for it were put to jail, and we are talking about an event that happened many decades ago. Since then Greece has been the sole biggest supporter of Cyprus. Therefore I can not understand the basis of the Greece haters in this forum.

For how many decades would the same people hate Turkey, if Turkey did a 180 degrees turn, jailed all those responsible for crimes in Cyprus, and became Cyprus's greatest supporter? I would have forgiven them immediately, even though their crimes in Cyprus lasted for decades (and centuries) not just a few days.

After Turkey, the UK has the most responsibility for the situation in Cyprus. It is the British who showed total disrespect to the will of the Cypriot people in the 50s (and earlier), and it is them who blackmailed us and forced us to accept that Turkey would have so called "guarantor" rights on our island. Not only no British was ever jailed for the crimes the British committed in Cyprus in the 50s and earlier, but the UK is one of the greatest supporters of Turkey in EU, not to mention that they still keep under colonial rule two significant parts of our island.

So how can Greece be blamed for some actions which were done decades ago by unelected dictators (which were since put to jail), while there is absolutely no mention of the crimes that the British committed in Cyprus (which were far more important in helping Turkey get a foot in Cyprus) and there is no demand from the UK to liberate Cyprus as part of their responsibility as a "guarantor"?

Greece is our biggest ally. They might not have the power to push Turkey out of Cyprus, but if every other country in the world gave to us the same support as Greece then we would be celebrating, as we would know that there is no way that the Turks would ever manage to legalize any of their illegalities in Cyprus.

[Get Real!]

The coup would have failed because it did not have the support of the people, and Makarios was not killed as planned.

There was sufficient local support to establish a win over government forces and Makarios could’ve been dealt with later.

But putting that to one side, I think there is a fair legal argument for intervention from the other Guarantor powers following the coup, but as I have said, only to establish the status quo. What Turkey did was destroy the status quo - the exact opposite, which makes Turkey's invasion illegal, whatever Greece did before.

Greece is the one that overthrew the legitimate government of Cyprus (destroyed the status quo as you call it) not Turkey, yet you expect Turkey to do the right thing and restore it while washing Greece’s hands clean! Fancy that!

It is fairly simple GR. Similar to the concept of a breach of contract - there were two separate breaches, and therefore they can stand independently. One claim does not have to depend on the other.

Greece's violation facilitated and triggered that of Turkey so the notion that they are unrelated is ludicrous to say the least.

Greece’s intentional violation of the Treaty of Guarantee at the cost of well defined consequences, coupled with Turkey’s subsequent short term and long term reactions against Cyprus proves without any reasonable doubt the Greco-Turkish conspiracy against Cyprus that I’ve been talking about.

[Paphitis]

Logging in for a "quick" reply

First of all, the pseudo independence with the so called "guarantors" was not what Greece or what the vast majority of Cypriots wanted. It was something that was imposed on us by the British and the Turks. If the will of the Cypriot people had been respected then Cyprus would have been as secure as any other Greek island, Turkey would have no "guarantor" or any other rights in Cyprus, and none of the events of 1974 and later would have happened.

Coups happen in many countries (several times in Turkey) and a coup can never be an excuse for a unilateral foreign invasion. Turks use the coup to excuse their invasion, but as Simon correctly pointed out the "guarantor" powers had the right to intervene only to restore order and protect the independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus. The Turks did the exact opposite. It is sad that some non-Turks are accepting the lame Turkish excuses, something that no country in the world does.

Even though the coup can not by any means justify the Turkish invasion, it was of course a criminal action which is condemned (like is the case with every other coup against a democratically elected government). Those responsible for it were put to jail, and we are talking about an event that happened many decades ago. Since then Greece has been the sole biggest supporter of Cyprus. Therefore I can not understand the basis of the Greece haters in this forum.

For how many decades would the same people hate Turkey, if Turkey did a 180 degrees turn, jailed all those responsible for crimes in Cyprus, and became Cyprus's greatest supporter? I would have forgiven them immediately, even though their crimes in Cyprus lasted for decades (and centuries) not just a few days.

After Turkey, the UK has the most responsibility for the situation in Cyprus. It is the British who showed total disrespect to the will of the Cypriot people in the 50s (and earlier), and it is them who blackmailed us and forced us to accept that Turkey would have so called "guarantor" rights on our island. Not only no British was ever jailed for the crimes the British committed in Cyprus in the 50s and earlier, but the UK is one of the greatest supporters of Turkey in EU, not to mention that they still keep under colonial rule two significant parts of our island.

So how can Greece be blamed for some actions which were done decades ago by unelected dictators (which were since put to jail), while there is absolutely no mention of the crimes that the British committed in Cyprus (which were far more important in helping Turkey get a foot in Cyprus) and there is no demand from the UK to liberate Cyprus as part of their responsibility as a "guarantor"?

Greece is our biggest ally. They might not have the power to push Turkey out of Cyprus, but if every other country in the world gave to us the same support as Greece then we would be celebrating, as we would know that there is no way that the Turks would ever manage to legalize any of their illegalities in Cyprus.

It does not matter what we wanted. It was a signed and sealed treaty by Makarios no less.

Therefore, Greece still to this day has a responsibility, along with the UK for that matter. The fact it has done nothing is quite enough for considerable blame to be levied.

[Get Real!]

Logging in for a "quick" reply

Ha! I expect you all to arrive one by one for “damage control”!

I'll look at the body of your post tomorrow.

[Piratis]

That is quite naive.

The Coup survived for 7 years and it had the support of a considerable chunk of the Greek population.

In fact, it was probably the most functional Greek Governments in Greek history. Even to this day, Greeks will tell you that the Junta completed many infrastructure projects because of their iron fist.

What is a "considerable chunk" and when was it measured? If those people had the support of the majority then they wouldn't need a coup to come to power.

[Paphitis]

That is quite naive.

The Coup survived for 7 years and it had the support of a considerable chunk of the Greek population.

In fact, it was probably the most functional Greek Governments in Greek history. Even to this day, Greeks will tell you that the Junta completed many infrastructure projects because of their iron fist.

What is a "considerable chunk" and when was it measured? If those people had the support of the majority then they wouldn't need a coup to come to power.

It is certainly quantifiable (blame) by this:

http://www.mfa.gr/images/docs/kypriako/ ... rantee.pdf

As to the junta's support, even to this day we have GD who worship the leaders and perpetrators of the Junta to this day.

[Piratis]

Logging in for a "quick" reply

First of all, the pseudo independence with the so called "guarantors" was not what Greece or what the vast majority of Cypriots wanted. It was something that was imposed on us by the British and the Turks. If the will of the Cypriot people had been respected then Cyprus would have been as secure as any other Greek island, Turkey would have no "guarantor" or any other rights in Cyprus, and none of the events of 1974 and later would have happened.

Coups happen in many countries (several times in Turkey) and a coup can never be an excuse for a unilateral foreign invasion. Turks use the coup to excuse their invasion, but as Simon correctly pointed out the "guarantor" powers had the right to intervene only to restore order and protect the independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus. The Turks did the exact opposite. It is sad that some non-Turks are accepting the lame Turkish excuses, something that no country in the world does.

Even though the coup can not by any means justify the Turkish invasion, it was of course a criminal action which is condemned (like is the case with every other coup against a democratically elected government). Those responsible for it were put to jail, and we are talking about an event that happened many decades ago. Since then Greece has been the sole biggest supporter of Cyprus. Therefore I can not understand the basis of the Greece haters in this forum.

For how many decades would the same people hate Turkey, if Turkey did a 180 degrees turn, jailed all those responsible for crimes in Cyprus, and became Cyprus's greatest supporter? I would have forgiven them immediately, even though their crimes in Cyprus lasted for decades (and centuries) not just a few days.

After Turkey, the UK has the most responsibility for the situation in Cyprus. It is the British who showed total disrespect to the will of the Cypriot people in the 50s (and earlier), and it is them who blackmailed us and forced us to accept that Turkey would have so called "guarantor" rights on our island. Not only no British was ever jailed for the crimes the British committed in Cyprus in the 50s and earlier, but the UK is one of the greatest supporters of Turkey in EU, not to mention that they still keep under colonial rule two significant parts of our island.

So how can Greece be blamed for some actions which were done decades ago by unelected dictators (which were since put to jail), while there is absolutely no mention of the crimes that the British committed in Cyprus (which were far more important in helping Turkey get a foot in Cyprus) and there is no demand from the UK to liberate Cyprus as part of their responsibility as a "guarantor"?

Greece is our biggest ally. They might not have the power to push Turkey out of Cyprus, but if every other country in the world gave to us the same support as Greece then we would be celebrating, as we would know that there is no way that the Turks would ever manage to legalize any of their illegalities in Cyprus.

It does not matter what we wanted. It was a signed and sealed treaty by Makarios no less.

Therefore, Greece still to this day has a responsibility, along with the UK for that matter. The fact it has done nothing is quite enough for considerable blame to be levied.

Of course what we wanted matters. It is what matters most. Even the British tell us that what the local people want maters and they are quick to show off how much they respect the will of the local population in places like Gibraltar or the Falklands. The fact that instead of a referendum (like they did in Gibraltar and Falklands) they took our leader and blackmailed him to sign what they demanded from him, is a crime against Cyprus.

Greece is relatively small, relatively poor (and now bankrupt) country. It is not that they do not want to act on their "guarantees", its just that they simply can't. On the other hand the UK is a relatively big and relatively powerful country, they even have nuclear weapons. If they wanted maybe they could liberate Cyprus (I am sure Greece would be glad to participate in a common operation with UK to liberate Cyprus). So the UK can help, but simply doesn't want Cyprus to be liberated, since the division is what suits them most (it is them who created it in the first place). Therefore the responsibility of the UK is far greater while their policies have always been against us. So I think it is time to end this unreasonable anti-Greece crap and realize that Greece today and for several decades has been our greatest supporter. Greece is not our enemy. Our enemies are those who occupy our lands, those who try to blackmail us and force on us their terms.

[Paphitis]

Unfortunately Piratis, there is a Treaty in place whereby no one involved, including Greece, have abided by which means that Greece has responsibility for the current Status Quo.

Governments sign treaties all the time without a referendum, and sometimes people do not agree with the policies of the incumbent responsible.

Naturally, there are grounds for the RoC to refute the Treaty since the signatories have not been true to their obligations.

Greece has an ernormous responsibility today, much more than the other 2, because as our true ally they allow this injustice to continue without doing anything worthwhile about it.

I would like nothing more to exonerate Greece, and I love Greece more than any of you, but there is certainly a lot to be ashamed of and until more of us stand up and hoist Greece by its petard, there is no remedy.