The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


Hope for Greek Cypriot refugees from the north

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby bg_turk » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:54 pm

lysi wrote:How can we return to our land when it has been sold of to to dozy greedy british people ?
Also what can you do if the turks have built a casino or brothel on your land ? what can you do.

I have no sympathy for casinos or brothels, they should be demolished, and the property should be returned to the original owners.

I am interested to know: In case the law is passed would you apply to Turkish Cypriot courts to get your properties back? That is of course assuming you would get a fair trial.
User avatar
bg_turk
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:24 pm
Location: Bulgaria

Postby Alexios » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:32 am

bg_turk wrote:
lysi wrote:How can we return to our land when it has been sold of to to dozy greedy british people ?
Also what can you do if the turks have built a casino or brothel on your land ? what can you do.

I have no sympathy for casinos or brothels, they should be demolished, and the property should be returned to the original owners.

I am interested to know: In case the law is passed would you apply to Turkish Cypriot courts to get your properties back? That is of course assuming you would get a fair trial.


I am not a refugee.My property is safely tacked away in far away Paphos, which the way is gradually been sold off (at good prices) to english old pensioners:) If i did have property in the north however , and this law did pass through allowing things to develop to a situation whereby i could return, I think i would give it considerable thought.The argument that this law is illegal because it will be enacted by an illegal state therefore i should not take advantage of it,is a correct legal argument but politically naive given the luck of alternatives under the current stagnant situation.Unless ofcourse one believes we really can win a political battle through legal means, which in any event are not clear cut. How many people will choose to return is a completely different matter.In case the move does materialize, but treated with mistrust by G/C refugees and worse damped by the Government, it will appear as we dont really wish to return.In case it does have an appeal, the Annan plan in effect takes shape ..No wonder Turkey appears to support it...
Alexios
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:07 pm

Re: Hope for Greek Cypriot refugees from the north

Postby sadik » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:11 pm

With the direction that we are going, I think it's very likely that most of the GC properties have the chance to be returned to their owners before a solution.

As far as I see, there are 2 problems in Cyprus:

1- A political problem.
2- A human rights problem.

The political problem in essence is the question of how much power each side will have in Cyprus and how big an area each side will control. The human rights problem is mainly the issue of right to property.

The question is, can we tackle the human rights issue before a comprehensive settlement.

Since we have not reached to a comprehensive settlement, and due to the fact that Cyprus is an EU member and Turkey is a prospective member, the urgency of solving the human rights issue is increasing. The solution of the political problem can wait until Turkey joins the EU. However, ECHR have already started seeing property cases, and it look like they will continue taking new cases. Not abiding by the ECHR rulings has the potential of creating a serious crisis between the EU and Turkey, as a prospective EU member and one of the largest marketplaces for EU exports. Avoiding this crisis is only possible by making changes in the property regime in the North.

Property regime will be changed and a new mechanism will be set for GCs to take back the ownership of their properties. If Turkey decides to go forward with this change, this will also mean that a deal has been reached with the ECHR, so the GCs will have to follow the process. I believe, through this process, most of the property will be returned to the GCs. There is no other way.

So what will be achieved by this? The seperation of the human rights issue from the political problem. The GCs will be able to use and sell their properties, yet the control of the north will stay in the hands of the TC administration. Maybe some GCs will settle back in the north, though I believe most will not. The result: GC properties in the north will be like TC properties in the South, Turkey will be releived and the pressure to solve the Cyprus problem will decrease. Without comprehensive settlement, this has the potential to take us one step closer to partition.

Questions that come to mind:

* Since not many GCs will choose to return in this case, with possible exception of some places on some coastal areas, what if they decide to sell their properties?
* How will GCs that gain the posession of their properties in the north feel about the ambargos to the north, that will keep the value of their properties relatively lower?
sadik
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Famagusta

Postby cypezokyli » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:09 pm

seläm sadik
like your post (even though i would expect critisism coming soon).

The question is, can we tackle the human rights issue before a comprehensive settlement.

the problem of the missing people is possible to be solved before solution

the problem of land-human rights is strictly connected to what u refered as "how big an area each side will control". since the tc demanded, and we accepted the bizonality bicommunality, who returns or not, will be strictly a matter of where the line is drown (perhaps some will return under tc administration but only so many in order not to disturb the above principles) . it is sick in a way, but i still agree with you, that solving a human rights problem could indeed hinder the prospect of solution.

hehe i dont think a gc getting his land back will be happy with the embargo.
iyi günler
cypezokyli
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:11 pm
Location: deutschland

Postby sadik » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:28 pm

bg_turk wrote:
lysi wrote:How can we return to our land when it has been sold of to to dozy greedy british people ?
Also what can you do if the turks have built a casino or brothel on your land ? what can you do.

I have no sympathy for casinos or brothels, they should be demolished, and the property should be returned to the original owners.

I am interested to know: In case the law is passed would you apply to Turkish Cypriot courts to get your properties back? That is of course assuming you would get a fair trial.


BG_Turk, changes in these laws will go forward only if Turkey and ECHR reach an agreement that ECHR will require the GCs to follow the procedure in the north before applying. Otherwise, changing the property laws in the north has no meaning. I believe we might start seeing GC properties being returned soon.
sadik
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Famagusta

Re: Hope for Greek Cypriot refugees from the north

Postby Kifeas » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:50 pm

sadik wrote:With the direction that we are going, I think it's very likely that most of the GC properties have the chance to be returned to their owners before a solution.

As far as I see, there are 2 problems in Cyprus:

1- A political problem.
2- A human rights problem.

The political problem in essence is the question of how much power each side will have in Cyprus and how big an area each side will control. The human rights problem is mainly the issue of right to property.

The question is, can we tackle the human rights issue before a comprehensive settlement.

Since we have not reached to a comprehensive settlement, and due to the fact that Cyprus is an EU member and Turkey is a prospective member, the urgency of solving the human rights issue is increasing. The solution of the political problem can wait until Turkey joins the EU. However, ECHR have already started seeing property cases, and it look like they will continue taking new cases. Not abiding by the ECHR rulings has the potential of creating a serious crisis between the EU and Turkey, as a prospective EU member and one of the largest marketplaces for EU exports. Avoiding this crisis is only possible by making changes in the property regime in the North.

Property regime will be changed and a new mechanism will be set for GCs to take back the ownership of their properties. If Turkey decides to go forward with this change, this will also mean that a deal has been reached with the ECHR, so the GCs will have to follow the process. I believe, through this process, most of the property will be returned to the GCs. There is no other way.

So what will be achieved by this? The seperation of the human rights issue from the political problem. The GCs will be able to use and sell their properties, yet the control of the north will stay in the hands of the TC administration. Maybe some GCs will settle back in the north, though I believe most will not. The result: GC properties in the north will be like TC properties in the South, Turkey will be releived and the pressure to solve the Cyprus problem will decrease. Without comprehensive settlement, this has the potential to take us one step closer to partition.

Questions that come to mind:

* Since not many GCs will choose to return in this case, with possible exception of some places on some coastal areas, what if they decide to sell their properties?
* How will GCs that gain the posession of their properties in the north feel about the ambargos to the north, that will keep the value of their properties relatively lower?


Sadik,
Before going further to the issue of how I will use my property in the north, and how I will feel about the "embargoes" etc, you need to explain to me how the "TRNC," even with the proposed changes to the property "laws," will manage to give me back my property so that I do not end up to the ECHR.

I have 10 donums on the sea shore of Lapithos (Lapta.) This property was given to a TC family and also issued them a "TRNC" title deed. Two years ago they "sold" half the land to a TC developer for some 20,000 UK£ per donum and the developer built 4 villas inside which he sold to 4 British families. The other half of the land which remained in the possession of the TC family they used it as a guarantee (collateral) in order to get a loan from a bank to build a house to their newly married daughter.

How is this law going to be implemented in my case, which is in fact the norm with almost all GC properties in the Kyrenia area? Isn't it too late?
User avatar
Kifeas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4927
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Lapithos, Kyrenia, now Pafos; Cyprus.

Re: Hope for Greek Cypriot refugees from the north

Postby sadik » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:21 pm

Sadik,
Before going further to the issue of how I will use my property in the north, and how I will feel about the "embargoes" etc, you need to explain to me how the "TRNC," even with the proposed changes to the property "laws," will manage to give me back my property so that I do not end up to the ECHR.

I have 10 donums on the sea shore of Lapithos (Lapta.) This property was given to a TC family and also issued them a "TRNC" title deed. Two years ago they "sold" half the land to a TC developer for some 20,000 UK£ per donum and the developer built 4 villas inside which he sold to 4 British families. The other half of the land which remained in the possession of the TC family they used it as a guarantee (collateral) in order to get a loan from a bank to build a house to their newly married daughter.

How is this law going to be implemented in my case, which is in fact the norm with almost all GC properties in the Kyrenia area? Isn't it too late?


Hi Kifeas,

I'm familiar with your personal case from your previous postings and I, of course, am not going to advise you on how to use your property.

As far as I know, the reason that the ECHR did not accept the compensation committee as an internal remedy was because it did not have the power to offer restitution for the property and only a financial compensation. Not because the TRNC did not exist. It seems that there are some preparations directed by Turkey on the property issue and they are playing on the ECHR accepting this as an internal remedy. I don't think they will go ahead if, somehow, they are not signalled that this will be accepted.

If the properties start to be returned, I don't think the Court can dismiss this saying that property is returned by a nonexistent entity.

I don't know what they are planning for complex cases where considerable development has taken place on properties, though I can speculate. We'll soon see what they are cooking.
sadik
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Famagusta

Postby bg_turk » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:10 pm

sadik wrote:BG_Turk, changes in these laws will go forward only if Turkey and ECHR reach an agreement that ECHR will require the GCs to follow the procedure in the north before applying.
Otherwise, changing the property laws in the north has no meaning. I
believe we might start seeing GC properties being returned soon.

Regardless whether Turkey and ECHR reach an agreement, I believe the morally correct decision for the TRNC would be to enact those laws and allow GCs to apply TRNC for restitution and compensation.
If TRNC does this then an agreement with the ECHR will be reached automatically, since the TRNC would have proved beyond doubt that an effective means of remedy exists for the refugees and it is up to GCs to use it.
I do not think the ECHR would agree on anything with Turkey, before it is clear that the the TRNC couirts are actually unbiased and fair.
User avatar
bg_turk
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:24 pm
Location: Bulgaria

Postby zan » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:30 pm

A DRAFT law that would provide the possibility of compensation to Greek Cypriot for immovable properties in the TRNC has been prepared and ratified by the Council of Ministers and is due to be published for consultation in the Official Gazette after procedural discussions in Parliament, President Mehmet Ali Talat revealed this week to Cyprus Today.
The government's aim is to bring the draft back before MPs for final approval — after the statutory 10-day public consultation period — before the start of budget discussions.
The President, speaking in the wake of a statement in London by Prime Minister Ferdi Sabit Soyer, who spoke of "changes in Article 159 of the Constitution" which also concerns properties, said: "What must be done has to be done if one is to avoid legal obstacles. But without reference to changing the Constitution, the draft law for compensation has been prepared."

http://www.cyprustoday.net/?newsid=2381&category=3

The article above only mentions compensation?
User avatar
zan
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 16213
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Re: Hope for Greek Cypriot refugees from the north

Postby Kifeas » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:42 pm

sadik wrote:Hi Kifeas,

I'm familiar with your personal case from your previous postings and I, of course, am not going to advise you on how to use your property.

As far as I know, the reason that the ECHR did not accept the compensation committee as an internal remedy was because it did not have the power to offer restitution for the property and only a financial compensation. Not because the TRNC did not exist. It seems that there are some preparations directed by Turkey on the property issue and they are playing on the ECHR accepting this as an internal remedy. I don't think they will go ahead if, somehow, they are not signalled that this will be accepted.

If the properties start to be returned, I don't think the Court can dismiss this saying that property is returned by a nonexistent entity.

I don't know what they are planning for complex cases where considerable development has taken place on properties, though I can speculate. We'll soon see what they are cooking.


Merhaba Sadik,
It is true that the ECHR rejected the compensation committee as an internal remedy primarily because it did not have the power to reinstate properties, but the issue of "TRNC" existence had already been examined and ruled out during the Loizidou case. The ECHR will only accept a property comity as an internal remedy, only if Turkey accepts that such a committee fells directly within its own jurisdiction and that any property owner who might not be satisfied with the outcome, can still take the case further up to the ECHR against Turkey. I see it impossible that the ECHR will give Turkey the chance to claim that since the court accepted a committee formed under the TRNC (a non-existent for the ECHR court entity,) Turkey ceased to have any further responsibility, should a GC is not satisfied with the results of it. If this would have been the case, then we will be talking about an indirect recognition of the TRNC from the back door, but even in such a case and since TRNC -besides not been recognised, is not a member of the Council of Europe either, any of its deeds and acts cannot be brought and tried in front of the ECHR either. A case can be brought in front of the ECHR only if it involves countries who are members of the Council of Europe and who had also ratified the relevant protocols, something which is not the case with the TRNC.

That is why I said earlier that all it seems to me is another "alchemic" experiment that Turkey (and the "TRNC") are preparing, with the sole aim of winning a bit of more time and thus also delaying the examination of the already pending cases in the ECHR.

Furthermore, I see such an act on behalf of the “TRNC,” namely to change article 159 of its constitution -something which in essence cancels all the issued “TRNC” title deeds against GC properties, while at the same time allowing the continuation of construction and development on these properties -which is essentially based on the to-be-cancelled title deeds, as one of the most oxymoron things one can ever come across. I certainly wouldn’t like to be in Talat’s & Co’s place …not even for one second.

The best thing I believe he can do for the sake of the Turkish Cypriots (and the Greek Cypriots,) is to empower himself with enough courage to tell the “deep-state” in Turkey to “FO” and lift up the phone and tell C. Annan that he is ready to discuss and negotiate the positions and concerns of the GC side so that we find a solution as soon as possible. And in case we discover that Papadopoullos is indeed changing line and becomes a hard liner -as some portray him to be, or that he tries to avoid negotiating and drag his feet further, hoping for the ideal solution in the unspecified future, then we the GCs will take care of him very soon. The only one that can prove to the GCs that Papadopoullos indeed doesn’t want a solution …is Talat himself. So far ...he consistently fails to prove it.
User avatar
Kifeas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4927
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Lapithos, Kyrenia, now Pafos; Cyprus.

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests