Cyprus-Forum.com

[Chrisswirl]

PS: I haven't proof read it, so I hope none of it is provocative. It's just a mix of my ideas. I have tried to be as nuetral as possible.

The problem isn't just limited to a Cyprus problem, it's a Greece-Turkey problem as well. The attitudes in each country need to be changed. Turkey has to accept that to some people Istanbul is called Constantinople and that the "population exchanges" were really ethnic cleansing. Greece has to accept that it takes two to tango and the nationalistic ideals of the 20's and the Megali idea... well, it was a bad idea. So was Enosis. And some Greeks, I'm sure, have to learn that Turkish people themselves are not their enemy.

Turkey and Greece, ignoring numbers, have to accept that people died on both sides, sort out the issue of the missing persons, put your dead to rest and move on together, making sure that there are no future statistics.

And none of this "peace mission" crap... if it was a peace mission they would have used their guarantee-status to have gone to Lefkosia, overthrown Samson and re-established the Cyprus Republic based on the 1960 constitution. That's what should have happened. But unfortunately the legacy of Ataturk runs on still in the army and the government is often stopped in its tracks when making a decision. And no, the attacks on the Turkish population were not acceptable, but nor were the attacks on the Greek population that followed. The fact that so many Greek Cypriots are refugees after 30 years is an attack on their liberality, and in my opinion the Turkish army also deprives to this day the Turkish Cypriot right to return to his previous life and under the economic situation many have left. Is this protecting the TC?

Seing as Turkey is always complaining about the Turks of Western Greece, an agreement should be made between the two countries allowing the Turks to address their concerns over the community and also allowing the Greeks from Istanbul the chance to return to the city. Reading Birds Without Wings, it seems a shame that the Turkish government refused the Turks and Greeks to resettle there; such a gesture would really go far in re establishing trust and friendship.

Basically, we have two problems, Greek nationalism and Turkish expansionism, which has turned into Greek worry of Turkish expansionism and Turkish nationalism when Greeks revolt.

The way to solve this problem is first in schools. When children learn from textbooks that only show one side of the story there is bound to be trouble. Although as a half Greek Cypriot I am angry over the situation in Cyprus, I understand that sometimes you must accept that the past is the past in order to have a good future.

Step by step is the only way to go, as there is much mistrust between the communities. Ammochostos should be opened, and if I was to start a solution movement, I'd open Ammochostos as an independant entity, of neither the "TRNC" or the Republic of Cyprus, but of the "United Republic of Cyprus", governed together under the duristiction of both communities, and slowly expand the area of the United Republic of Cyprus after trust is gained.

But please, Turkey, take the flag down off our (all Cypriots) mountain. It does not aid a solution, it encourages seperatism.

[erolz]

Hi Chris. Welcome to the site.

There is some stuff in your post I agree with and some I do not but there is one thing that I am genuinely interested in - as I see it reappear time and time again.

Basically, we have two problems, Greek nationalism and Turkish expansionism,

I really find this idea that Turkey is expansionist hard to understand, be it expansionist relative to other nations (and especially relative to Greece) or be it in absoloute terms. It seems to me that from the founding of Modern Greece it has expanded massively. From the founding of modern Turkey it has essentially retained the same borders more or less. Yet GC and I assume Greeks see Turkey as a fundamentaly expansionist power. This really puzzels me? It's not just in the actual land areas and how they have changed in these two states since their comming into existance but also it seems to that in their founding principals there was a fundamental expansionist ideal in Greece (mengali) ideal where as modern Turkey was founded on essentialy an idea of 'renoucing ottoman empire' and on a boundry defined Turkish state. It may be that my knowledge of the history of these two respectives states is not well enough informed but from the little I do know and my simple adding up of how much each state has expanded since its creation this (often repeated) idea that Turkey is an expansionist state seem a little strange, espeically comming from Greeks.

[Chrisswirl]

I see what you mean, the Megali idea was expansionist, but it wasn't realistic. In the end the Megali idea was foolish extreme nationalism, gone very badly wrong. Enosis was extreme nationalism and in both cases it was the Greeks that paid the price in the end.

When you say that Greece has expanded hugely, a Greek would say that where as 100 years ago the Greek population spanned accross to the Black Sea and Anatolia, the area that it currently resides is smaller. You would agree with me if I said that the area originally declared as Modern Greece did not incude the majority of Greeks?

There have been a few cases of expansionism, namely the few islands off the Aegean coast that now form part of Turkey (for strategic reasons), but it's really the threat of expansionism after the population exchanges, the wish for land in Cyprus, and the claim on Aegean islands that worries Greeks. At least, this is how I understand it. Certainly in Cyprus, there was always the worry that the Turks would return and take more land, and preperations were made incase they did.

PS: I am always open to discussion and want to get along with everyone here, but I am not one to really think before I say things, all I wish to say is that I do not wish to offend anyone. A discussion is always good though, and this is what I wanted to experience here, to understand each other more.

[erolz]

When you say that Greece has expanded hugely, a Greek would say that where as 100 years ago the Greek population spanned accross to the Black Sea and Anatolia, the area that it currently resides is smaller. You would agree with me if I said that the area originally declared as Modern Greece did not incude the majority of Greeks?

Yes I see what you mean and yes I agree that the original area encompased by the modern state of Greece did not include many many Greeks and probably a majority (I really dont know but it seems possible to me). I guess for me when you talk of 'expansionist' that refers to a state and not to a race. Certainly the modern state of Greece has expanded 3 to 4 times its original size. The modern state of Turkey by comparison has expanded by what 1% maybe since it was founded? I am not saying there were not good, acceptable reasons for the expansion of Greece. I just find it strange that so many Greeks (though really I only know GC) have this image of Turkey as an expansionst state despite the fact that it has not actually expanded to any significant degree since its founding.

[Piratis]

Well, its not Greece that illegally occupies part of an independent country is it?

And its not Greece that violates the airspace of other countries with fighter jets either.

Turkey is definitely expansionist against Cyprus and Aegean, and this is no secret.

[Chrisswirl]

Well in the past Turkey has had ambitions for the Eastern Aegean, and even Gavdos! But these ambitions have gone away and I can see that Turkey has moved on.

Again it depends how you see it. The original "Greece" didn't go much further than Athens, but clearly many Greeks lived beyond those borders. It perhaps could be said that the Greek expansion was more liberation of Greek lands than taking other people's land. As far as the Greeks were concerned, their lands included Smyrna and Constantinople. Of course, as we know now, hardly any Greeks remain there.

Cyprus is a small island though, and Turkey took a sizeable amount; you can imagine if someone invaded and took your home and said you have to live somewhere else, for whatever reason, you wouldn't be best pleased. You'd also probably worry that they'd return. Turkey also has a huge military, I don't know, it could aid towards the image of an "expansionist threat".