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I won my bet!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:52 pm

apologise because in the process of enosis we compltely ignored or attacked the tcs. dont get me wrong on this. i never said that if i lived back then i would be in a position to think differently. most probably i would have also supported enosis. viewing history from 2005 it seems wrong.



"We, the death stricken widows whose husbands were murdered by the masked men on the night of 21st January, we who shed bitter tears for the loss of our protectors consider it necessary to forward an appeal to every Greek Cypriot, and generally to the responsible political leaders of the country.

The death of our beloved ones fell upon us like a heavy block of stones. Our eyes are still wet with bitter tears. We never thought that murderers would be so cowardly and without any reason make us dress in black, and deprive our children of their father.

The widows declared that their husbands were not criminals but affectionate fathers and husbands and honest patriots 'working tirelessly in the ranks of the Trade Unions and the people's movement for the achievement of self-determination, for the return of the Archbishop and the solution of all the problems which subject our country to hard- ships', and that their husbands had been killed solely because of their membership of the left-wing party:

Do the murderers not understand that the method of political murders is fratricide ? Do they not realise that to achieve the extermination of the Left-wing party and the Trade Union Movement thousands of women will be dressed in black, and that thousands of innocent children will be deprived of their fathers? Do they not realise that such madness will lead us to civil war?

The murders set in motion the cycle of recriminations. Faced with the rising hostility of the people, EOKA tried to justify the incidents by alleging that the EOKA men were forced to open fire in self-defence, that EOKA's blows were aimed at traitors irrespective of political ideologies, and that no plan existed to exterminate the left wing as a whole. The apologies concluded with the familiar accusation of AKEL's cooperation with the British. But the volume of left-wing protests

continued to rise. AKEL challenged EOKA to accept the verdict of an independent commission set up by the people to investigate the allegations against the left, and offered to discredit and publicly expel from the Party any Akelist found guilty of treason. At the same time AKEL stressed the danger of partition, the need for unity and the avoidance of incidents likely to spark off civil war."

And if that was your father they murdered would you still think that EOKA were right.

Again just to put the record straight.

Source, didn,t quite get the link about your name. Are you part of main source or you just use thier name?
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Postby Piratis » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:07 pm

Main_Source, calm down a bit please.

I think Cypezokyli explained the problem of the enosis cause: "it took no consideration of our tcs compatriots". I think thats very valid point.

On the other hand before 1960 enosis was the only form of liberation that was known to us. Nobody had offered to us an independent Cyprus. Therefore the TCs should also understand that saying: "we don't want enosis, stay under the British rule", was not an option for Greek Cypriots.

If the 1960 agreements were the ones that would create in Cyprus a normal independent country, they would have indeed been the ideal solution for both GCs and TCs.

However those agreements were far from ideal and that fueled the nationalism that still existed on both sides with EOKA-B and TMT and the 13 points etc. For those events we have the biggest part of the blame, since we could have controlled the situation better and hopefully our TC compatriots would have finally seen that some of the provisions of the constitution (like the 30% governmental jobs for the 18% TC community) were unfair and changes could have been made without any bloodshed.

Said the same thing mate a hundred times but SOME people keep saying well who started it. It was the TCs and I'm afraid that only sets off the teacher in me.

And who are those people zan? We would be more than willing to forget about the past, forgive TCs and Turkey, and start something new today based on the principles of democracy, human rights and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations.

We don't need to use the past and the "who started it" argument, because our human and democratic rights are violated by Turkey today right at the very moment we speak.

The ones that start this "who started it" and the blame games are the ones who are trying to excuse the illegalities that they do today and they want to continue to do tomorrow.

Don't you always come here to tell us that because of what happened in some decade somewhere in history it means that the GCs are to blame and for this reason the human right violations that you commit against GCs today are perfectly excused?

Sorry, zan. But when in order to excuse the crimes that you commit against us now you bring as an excuse that 1 decade, then we have no other option other than to remind you all the rest of the history you seem to conveniently forget.

Yes GCs have their share of blame. It is those 10 years in History. The TC share of blame is however centuries of history PLUS the last 3 decades PLUS the present PLUS the promise that you will continue the violations of our rights in the future.

So instead of playing the blame game and trying to magnify the events of that 1 decade as much as possible in order to promote hate and justify even more crimes against us, why don't you accept that you have no right and no excuse to violate today our human and democratic rights? Why don't you just stop the illegalities?
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Postby zan » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:24 pm

Quote:
Said the same thing mate a hundred times but SOME people keep saying well who started it. It was the TCs and I'm afraid that only sets off the teacher in me.

And who are those people zan? We would be more than willing to forget about the past, forgive TCs and Turkey, and start something new today based on the principles of democracy, human rights and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations.

We don't need to use the past and the "who started it" argument, because our human and democratic rights are violated by Turkey today right at the very moment we speak.

The ones that start this "who started it" and the blame games are the ones who are trying to excuse the illegalities that they do today and they want to continue to do tomorrow.

Don't you always come here to tell us that because of what happened in some decade somewhere in history it means that the GCs are to blame and for this reason the human right violations that you commit against GCs today are perfectly excused?

Sorry, zan. But when in order to excuse the crimes that you commit against us now you bring as an excuse that 1 decade, then we have no other option other than to remind you all the rest of the history you seem to conveniently forget.

Yes GCs have their share of blame. It is those 10 years in History. The TC share of blame is however centuries of history PLUS the last 3 decades PLUS the present PLUS the promise that you will continue the violations of our rights in the future.

So instead of playing the blame game and trying to magnify the events of that 1 decade as much as possible in order to promote hate and justify even more crimes against us, why don't you accept that you have no right and no excuse to violate today our human and democratic rights? Why don't you just stop the illegalities?


Piratis can you not see you are contradicting your self above. You cannot say we will forget the past and then go straight into a speech about the self-same past.

I have stated what I think should happen for the best. We cannot start moving (hundreds of thousands of them from both sides) without causing heartache and anger to both communities. There are already people making claims and receiving counter claims against each other for the same piece of land. It is small scale now, what will happen when the flood gates open?
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Postby Piratis » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:49 pm

"Claims" do not count. If claims counted I could claim the whole universe.
There are the official title deeds and the official records. In cases there is some dispute, e.g. two people have official (not "TRNC") title deeds for the same part of land then we have courts and these cases will be resolved in the same way they are resolved in any other country.

I didn't say things should happen from one day to the next. Things can move back to normal over transitional periods that will make this transition a smooth one.
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Postby bg_turk » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:05 am

zan wrote:We would be more than willing to forget about the past, forgive TCs and Turkey, and start something new today based on the principles of democracy, human rights and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations.


You cannot forget the past Piratis, it will always haunt you.

For example ...

Bosnia cooperated with the Nazis during the Nazi occupation of Serbia, but after the defeat of German for the sake of a democratic fair and socialist Yugoslavia the two peoples were willing to forget the past.
And what happened ? 60 years down the line the Srebrenitsa massacres occurred.
You cannot forget the past, and it takes a long time to forgive. Only when people are willing to forgive each other SINCERELY (not for the sake of getting their properties back) can trust be rebuilt.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:18 am

France and Germany have been enemies and they fought 2 world wars against each other. Now there are no problems.
Blacks and whites in the USA is another example. There are many examples.

The past is only used as an excuse. The real reasons are always different. The past is just one of the excuses that is used. If this excuse does not exist the ones that want to create problems will find another excuse.
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Postby cypezokyli » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:21 am

why are you so sure that the example of ex-yugoslavia is a rule?
u seem to be repeating it the whole time
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Postby zan » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:52 am

Piratis wrote:"Claims" do not count. If claims counted I could claim the whole universe.
There are the official title deeds and the official records. In cases there is some dispute, e.g. two people have official (not "TRNC") title deeds for the same part of land then we have courts and these cases will be resolved in the same way they are resolved in any other country.

I didn't say things should happen from one day to the next. Things can move back to normal over transitional periods that will make this transition a smooth one.


[04] Aziz Kent, says that he has a title deed from the Republic of Cyprus and that he is getting ready to open suit in England against the Cyprus government
Under the banner headline I challenge you, Turkish Cypriot daily VATAN newspaper (11.05.05) reports that Mr Aziz Kent (John Aziz), tourist agent and owner of the Celebrity Hotel, who is one of the four persons for whom arrest warrants were issued from the Republic of Cyprus, reacted strongly to this development saying that he is getting ready to open a case in England.
Mr Kent supports that he has a title deed from the Department of Land and Surveys of the Republic of Cyprus. The paper publishes a certificate of the Registration of immovable Property which was issued by the Republic of Cyprus in the name of Aziz Mehmet in 1971.

As the paper writes, a warrant was issued for Mr Kent due to a complaint that he was occupying a 27-donums Greek Cypriot land in occupied Lapithos village and that his hotel under the name Semiramis is inside this land.

In a statement he made to the VATAN newspaper, Mr Kent denied the Greek Cypriots claims, as he said and noted that he will give an international legal battle against the Republic of Cyprus for its lies and added that he will prove this with a law suit that he will file in England. He also said that he will cross to south Cyprus and in case he is arrested due to the arrest warrant, he will made known to the whole world the lies of the Greek Cypriot section with the document he has in his hands.

Mr Kent, who owns the Celebrity Hotel, stated that the construction permission and the title deed were given to him before 1974, in 1971, and noted that this was the first Turkish hotels that were built in Cyprus. He also showed to the paper the title deed, which is under the name Aziz Mehmet that Mr Kent, used before.

Mr Kent stated that he will give all the legal battle needed against this ugly game, and noted that the motherland and the TRNC must help him in this. Mr Kent stated that he challenges the Greek Cypriots to come to England and to prove their case in a law suit that he will open there for this issue.

As the paper writes, Mr Kent is going to England in the next days to start taking initiatives on the issue.

This is a multi millionaire against a government. What chance have the little people got against the crooks on both sides.
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Postby Main_Source » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:02 am

I have stated what I think should happen for the best. We cannot start moving (hundreds of thousands of them from both sides) without causing heartache and anger to both communities. There are already people making claims and receiving counter claims against each other for the same piece of land. It is small scale now, what will happen when the flood gates open?


There is heartache and anger now...amongst people who have a 3,500 years worth of claim on their home....FUCK the Turkish settlers. Thats Turkey's problem...your using the word 'hearache' as an excuse. As for the land ownership it simple, you look at the legitimate title deeds for the land and see who it belongs too. This will not clear up until Turkey begings to remove the settlers it brought over.

As for BG Turk...fuck him and all. He only comes here because he is anti Greek. His arguments have already been challenged and belittled on another Cyprus website. He's full of crap and is here simply to stir up trouble with Greeks.
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Postby Main_Source » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:04 am

This is a multi millionaire against a government. What chance have the little people got against the crooks on both sides


Who made the claim against Mr Kent? RoC government or a citizen of the RoC. I remember the RoC specifically recommending GC not to take lawsuits against TC (they didnt say anything about TC millionaires though).
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