Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

It seems you have not read the articles, which frankly would not surprise me, since one of them , by Woodward, argues quite cogently there was no obligation to militarily intervene.

This may well follow on Big Mak' repudiation of the treaty of Guarantee in 1964.

Some student's Masters thesis, arguing for excuses as to why Britain failed its obligations, is not proof this was the case no matter how much you want to apologise for their inadequacies.

What next as "proof" - a GCSE "horrible histories" essay by some 15 year old?

Just the narrow minded bigoted argument I expected from you . Nothing of substance which challenges the case as argued. This just shows how sad and pathetic you are, someone who thinks they are a dinosaur remnant ie , a reptile or a bird not a mammal. Shows the quality of your bird brained thinking, the birds being the true dinosaur remnants.

And the above shows the level of understanding of which you are capable. You might as well resort to comic books to back you up - but that doesn't mean they are worth arguing against. If comic books are what you use to support your singularly inane idea, that Britain mysteriously had absolved responsibility as a guarantor whilst holding on to the bases, then it shows your true affiliations and contradicts a lot of what you spout.

Colonial Britain signed up to something in order to gain - once it realised it may have to fight against Turkey, it did what any coward would do - pretend it has nothing to do with them. Fine, but then Britain should not hold on to the SBAs as it FAILED to carry out its obligation for which it retains the SBAs. Now it supports students to try and "prove" it had no obligations.

[Paphitis]

It seems you have not read the articles, which frankly would not surprise me, since one of them , by Woodward, argues quite cogently there was no obligation to militarily intervene.

This may well follow on Big Mak' repudiation of the treaty of Guarantee in 1964.

Some student's Masters thesis, arguing for excuses as to why Britain failed its obligations, is not proof this was the case no matter how much you want to apologise for their inadequacies.

What next as "proof" - a GCSE "horrible histories" essay by some 15 year old?

Just the narrow minded bigoted argument I expected from you . Nothing of substance which challenges the case as argued. This just shows how sad and pathetic you are, someone who thinks they are a dinosaur remnant ie , a reptile or a bird not a mammal. Shows the quality of your bird brained thinking, the birds being the true dinosaur remnants.

And the above shows the level of understanding of which you are capable. You might as well resort to comic books to back you up - but that doesn't mean they are worth arguing against. If comic books are what you use to support your singularly inane idea, that Britain mysteriously had absolved responsibility as a guarantor whilst holding on to the bases, then it shows your true affiliations and contradicts a lot of what you spout.

Colonial Britain signed up to something in order to gain - once it realised it may have to fight against Turkey, it did what any coward would do - pretend it has nothing to do with them. Fine, but then Britain should not hold on to the SBAs as it FAILED to carry out its obligation for which it retains the SBAs. Now it supports students to try and "prove" it had no obligations.

I have not read those sources either but I have looked at many official sources and posted some here which you should read.

Britain has not been absolved of its legal or moral obligation as Guarantor Power to the RoC by protecting its territorial sovereignty. Neither has Greece!

Britain however did stand up and it did support the RoC and Makarios through its actions and in the political and diplomatic sphere as Kissinger himself can attest. There was in fact a lot of hostility between the British Government and the Nixon/Kissinger Administration in the US. They got an assurance from the US that they will stop the invasion at the earliest opportunity and the US came back to Britain with the 22 Jul 74 ceasefire. The US and NATO had to remind Britain that any action by them would result in a massive catastrophe to NATO and its Southern Flank.

In effect, Britain was also tied to its legal obligations to NATO and Soviet Action was something they believed was a real threat and possibility should Britain intervene.

I found Britain's actions quite surprising and I also think Britain was quite brave doing what it did in representing the RoC's interest to the US Administration and even considering seriously to militarily intervene.

I provided all the sources, so read them!

[Sotos]

Occupation by definition denotes illegitimacy. The SBAs are not an occupation.

It is an occupation because they got them by blackmailing us. Why do you feel the need to excuse them?

I want to see the sources you have that prove to me that the US and UK should be my enemy. I have helped you with one of them as they were complicit, but even so, why should Cyprus maintain any animosity when it is probably far more constructive to form strong ties for the future of all future generations on the island?

If those who claim parts of our island to be theirs are not our enemies then I don't know who else could be! Even if you dispute the other nasty shit they did to Cyprus there is no way to hide what is most obvious and which you can see with your own eyes.

I am having a hard time finding anything good that Greece has done or achieved for Cyprus. Maybe you can tell me.

Free university education for many decades. Water when we were about to die from thirst. Full support to our position in the Cyprus Problem etc. What other country has ever done more?

The Coup was even conducted on the orders of the Junta in Athens, with only some slight hints of US complicity.

I don't have any perpetual grudge or animosity with Greece. If they do something constructive for us, like I believe they should, then I will love Greece like anything. In fact, I love Greece like anything now.

The dictators in Greece were at certain points extremely popular in Greece, and also fully recognised as the Government of Greece during the period. You can't erase that part of Greek history because you don't like it or are not proud of it. Metaxas was a dictator as well.

You want to erase from history decades of colonialism by the British followed by a blackmail which led to them keeping until today parts of Cyprus under occupation ... but you hold a grudge against Greece for one coup that happened decades ago and which was done by some unelected dictators? Your prejudice is obvious! If the Turks tomorrow withdrew their troops, put to jail all those Turks responsible for the occupation and then declared that they respect everything that the Cypriot people decide... for how long after that should we hold a grudge against them?

Unfortunately you did stoop very low!

When I said baboon, I was not calling you one, but talking in a figurative manner about historical events brought about in the past over sheer stupidity!

In other words, I believe certain things were just real dumb, and because I believe they are dumb, I may say things like "you baboons" or "you morons" or something of that nature to attribute to the idiots that did things in the past, which you couldn't write about if you tried, that resulted in the loss of nearly half of the island.

It was not a personal attack on you or anyone else.

However, attacking someone because of where they live or where they were born or their parents is personal. You don't know who you are talking to. It might be highly likely that this person is from a family of refugees that lost everything in the war. It might be a young Cypriot trying to connect with roots and has never been to Cyprus. OK?

Nothing personal ... I never said that it is your or your parents fault that you were born and raised abroad. But in general somebody who is born and raised abroad is bound to adopt the culture of his new country and not so much that of Cyprus. How can you be so offended by this when you told us that you are "native Australian"?? Your claim confirms what I said!

[Paphitis]

Occupation by definition denotes illegitimacy. The SBAs are not an occupation.

It is an occupation because they got them by blackmailing us. Why do you feel the need to excuse them?

No it is NOT an occupation at all. The SBAs are legitimised by the Treaty of Establishment.

I do not excuse anything Sotos. I just like factual information and think it is about time we become more realistic because it is more productive. I grew up hearing all the wives tales, half truths and conspiracy theories, and had my own questions which I needed to find the answers to.

I want to see the sources you have that prove to me that the US and UK should be my enemy. I have helped you with one of them as they were complicit, but even so, why should Cyprus maintain any animosity when it is probably far more constructive to form strong ties for the future of all future generations on the island?

If those who claim parts of our island to be theirs are not our enemies then I don't know who else could be! Even if you dispute the other nasty shit they did to Cyprus there is no way to hide what is most obvious and which you can see with your own eyes.

As I already told you, the Brits do not claim a part of the island. They have Sovereign bases at the moment. I can see just fine, and the RoC could even benefit from the British presence, but sadly we are too caught up in playing silly political games for the Brits to allow that.

Turkey is my enemy.

I am having a hard time finding anything good that Greece has done or achieved for Cyprus. Maybe you can tell me.

Free university education for many decades. Water when we were about to die from thirst. Full support to our position in the Cyprus Problem etc. What other country has ever done more?

If that is all it takes then naturally, the UK, US, Canada and Australia have all contributed ten fold more to Cyprus than Greece has. They graciously accepted us into their countries, educated us and gave us careers and jobs. Australia also had free education and I bet there were many more Cypriots in Australian Universities than there were in Greece.

Officially, they have given as much support to the RoC if rhetoric is all it takes. As I said, I think the UK, US, Canada and Australia have done a lot more and will do a lot more for many decades to come, as well as give you the support you need to drill for gas which brings Israel into the equation now.

The Coup was even conducted on the orders of the Junta in Athens, with only some slight hints of US complicity.

I don't have any perpetual grudge or animosity with Greece. If they do something constructive for us, like I believe they should, then I will love Greece like anything. In fact, I love Greece like anything now.

The dictators in Greece were at certain points extremely popular in Greece, and also fully recognised as the Government of Greece during the period. You can't erase that part of Greek history because you don't like it or are not proud of it. Metaxas was a dictator as well.

You want to erase from history decades of colonialism by the British followed by a blackmail which led to them keeping until today parts of Cyprus under occupation ... but you hold a grudge against Greece for one coup that happened decades ago and which was done by some unelected dictators? Your prejudice is obvious! If the Turks tomorrow withdrew their troops, put to jail all those Turks responsible for the occupation and then declared that they respect everything that the Cypriot people decide... for how long after that should we hold a grudge against them?

No of course I do not want to erase your history. That is absurd.

Whether it was Blackmail or not is something we can leave to one side for a second. Fact of the matter is, we are all responsible for what we do. If we were to wait a mere couple of years, we would have had everything on our own terms.

Furthermore, I hold a "grudge" with Greece because what it did in 1974 has continued to this day because Greece refuses to stand up and be held accountable by helping the RoC. Politically, they have barely done the same as the US and UK at best. If this was actually not the case, then there is not much I could say other than Greece made a hefty mistake that cost us a great deal in 1974.

The US, UK et al, are not as much obligated since you tell me they are our enemies. If the RoC is an enemy to them then why the hell would they help?

Unfortunately you did stoop very low!

When I said baboon, I was not calling you one, but talking in a figurative manner about historical events brought about in the past over sheer stupidity!

In other words, I believe certain things were just real dumb, and because I believe they are dumb, I may say things like "you baboons" or "you morons" or something of that nature to attribute to the idiots that did things in the past, which you couldn't write about if you tried, that resulted in the loss of nearly half of the island.

It was not a personal attack on you or anyone else.

However, attacking someone because of where they live or where they were born or their parents is personal. You don't know who you are talking to. It might be highly likely that this person is from a family of refugees that lost everything in the war. It might be a young Cypriot trying to connect with roots and has never been to Cyprus. OK?

Nothing personal ... I never said that it is your or your parents fault that you were born and raised abroad. But in general somebody who is born and raised abroad is bound to adopt the culture of his new country and not so much that of Cyprus. How can you be so offended by this when you told us that you are "native Australian"?? Your claim confirms what I said!

Yes OK. Nothing personal.

But talking about culture, I feel privileged that I grew up in Australia. An American or British Cypriot might say the same thing about growing up in America and Britain.

In many ways, the culture in these countries is more highly evolved politically (not saying they are better morally) in that they have a far better and more logical way of dealing with things for some reason. There is nothing at all wrong with an American or Australian Culture and it is probably better if Cyprus had influence from those cultural spheres. It would go a long way in terms maybe having another more productive outlook on things which I do not believe you have in the slightest!

There is a lot more to gain from US, UK, Canada and Australia than there is from Greece.

[Sotos]

Paphitis, it is obvious that you being part of a the Anglo culture has made you blind to the crimes of UK/USA in Cyprus As a real native Cypriot I can tell you that for us there is nothing OK with the British claiming parts of Cyprus as their own or with the Americans arming the occupation forces while having an arms embargo against Cyprus. Not to mention all the support that the USA/UK give to Turkey which you can deny all you want but it is really so obvious that I don't even need to argue more about it! Greece has done a lot more good things for Cyprus than any other country ... don't confuse the things that foreign countries give to immigrants like yourself with doing something for Cyprus. And if Greece has done 1 bad thing... when ruled by unelected dictators, the AngloAmericans have done a 100 bad things and they continue doing them... so I am not buying your excuses for them!

[supporttheunderdog]

Sotos have you actually read the three articles I posted links too and if not why not, or are you concerned at the risk you might find that whatever the crimes might be, they might not include a conspiracy in 1974 to divide the Island, which is so beloved of many. Unless and until people like you, GiG. Kuru, Youlooser, B25' etc, can deal with the articles with rational debate you will come across as increasingly narrow minded bigoted and irrelevant fools, particularlynif all you can do is be be abusive or ( at the best) simply dismissive and you do no good to your cause at all.

The primary criminals in 1974 were the Greek Junta and the Cypriots who supported them. Without the Cypriot participants in particular, the acoup would never have happened and neither would the Turkish invasion. I do not blame all Greeks or all Cypriots, only those who promoted these events.

[B25]

The primary criminals in 1974 were the Greek Junta and the Cypriots who supported them. Without the Cypriot participants in particular, the acoup would never have happened and neither would the Turkish invasion. I do not blame all Greeks or all Cypriots, only those who promoted these events.

I expect nothing less from a colonialist. Utter BS.

If you want to play the cause and effect game, then you need to go back further. if it wasn't for the CIA who controlled the Junta, if it wasn't for the Brits that colluded with the Turks from the 50' even, then the Junta and the Cypriots would not even come into the equation.

When I worked in manufacturing and we have a production problem, we used the 5 Why to establish the actual cause. Go on try it, go back 5 times and see where you end up.

I find your comments, as someone who has chosen to live here a F insult to be force feeding us you crap about how wonderful the Brits were back in those days. Tell us how many of your family members were subjected to brutal beatings by the Brits back then and their lap dogs the TCs?? How many members of your family did you lose and what property??? Seems words are cheap. Paphitis, for whatever reason has turned on Cyprus, maybe just too much time on his hands, but trying to tell use that the Brist and the Yanks were fault free in this is like telling us Mary Magedelin was a virgin.

[Paphitis]

The primary criminals in 1974 were the Greek Junta and the Cypriots who supported them. Without the Cypriot participants in particular, the acoup would never have happened and neither would the Turkish invasion. I do not blame all Greeks or all Cypriots, only those who promoted these events.

I expect nothing less from a colonialist. Utter BS.

If you want to play the cause and effect game, then you need to go back further. if it wasn't for the CIA who controlled the Junta, if it wasn't for the Brits that colluded with the Turks from the 50' even, then the Junta and the Cypriots would not even come into the equation.

When I worked in manufacturing and we have a production problem, we used the 5 Why to establish the actual cause. Go on try it, go back 5 times and see where you end up.

I find your comments, as someone who has chosen to live here a F insult to be force feeding us you crap about how wonderful the Brits were back in those days. Tell us how many of your family members were subjected to brutal beatings by the Brits back then and their lap dogs the TCs?? How many members of your family did you lose and what property??? Seems words are cheap. Paphitis, for whatever reason has turned on Cyprus, maybe just too much time on his hands, but trying to tell use that the Brist and the Yanks were fault free in this is like telling us Mary Magedelin was a virgin.

I am really surprised at your post B25. I never said that the US was faultless. I said it played a significant role.

What is required is some objectivity and that is exactly what I have been saying, because I think Cyprus has paid a high price already and that should never have been the case.

Really shocked B25.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis, it is obvious that you being part of a the Anglo culture has made you blind to the crimes of UK/USA in Cyprus As a real native Cypriot I can tell you that for us there is nothing OK with the British claiming parts of Cyprus as their own or with the Americans arming the occupation forces while having an arms embargo against Cyprus. Not to mention all the support that the USA/UK give to Turkey which you can deny all you want but it is really so obvious that I don't even need to argue more about it! Greece has done a lot more good things for Cyprus than any other country ... don't confuse the things that foreign countries give to immigrants like yourself with doing something for Cyprus. And if Greece has done 1 bad thing... when ruled by unelected dictators, the AngloAmericans have done a 100 bad things and they continue doing them... so I am not buying your excuses for them!

I am more part of the Cypriot and Greek culture than you realise. But yes I agree, I grew up in Australia, and I think I am very fortunate for that.

My wife has told me that in Australia, the Department of Immigration released some statistics about Greek Migration. Currently, there are 58,000 applications of Greeks wanting to migrate to Australia. Unfortunately, things are not like they were in the old days. Australia is extremely selective about the applicants work skills, language skills and age.

Can I ask you if I am a native Cypriot? If not, what is it that disqualifies me? Growing up in an "Anglo" country or being born overseas?

You also say that Greece has done more for Cyprus! Like what? You said education. Well, as I said to you before, there are ten fold more Cypriots leaving Cyprus temporarily to attend UK, US, Canadian and Australian universities than Greece. So that doesn't make any sense.

Has Greece sent its military over to Cyprus in order to defend it? I would like to know.

Did you know, there are 502 Australian Soldiers buried in Crete alone. I am sure the Brits buried there are far more. Yeh lets send our soldiers 20,000kms away and be killed. If they died for Crete, is it the same as dieing for Cyprus? I ask you now.

The Americans do not arm the occupation forces. In fact, for your information, Turkey still has vintage M48 Tanks in Cyprus because America will not allow any weapons it sells to Turkey as of late to be mobilised in Cyprus. Each arms deal must pass through Congress and every single time there is debate about whether those weapons will be used in Cyprus. True Story.

But you know, the US sells weapons to Turkey because it is a NATO ally. It sells as many arms to Greece! Can you truly comprehend that the Greek military is actually armed to the teeth. The hardware it has is absolutely phenomenal. People don't really appreciate this, but you could easily classify Greece as a formidable Military Power. Once again, the bulk of it is from the US.

Greece for the last 4 decades is unable to drill in the Aegean because of the cassus belli. Cyprus is drilling now. Why has Turkey not issued Cyprus with a cassus belli? It wouldn't have anything to do with the US would it?

So again, I am sure the Americans are not doing it because they love us, but they are doing it which helps us and their own interests. Use it. Once the gas runs out, you would have missed a great opportunity.

The problem Sotos is that Cypriots think that Greece is the only country in the world or that they must be loyal to Greece through thick and thin. Well look where that has got you my friend. There is a far bigger issue than just money. How about liberation?

There is a big world out there! And I never said that Cyprus should turn its back on Greece. But, Cypriots need to explore that big world. The buck does not stop with Greece. It is about time Cyprus looks 3 dimensionally, and that is what I have been trying to get you to do in my own way.

I am not against Greece. On the contrary! Greece is close to my heart.

You guys seriously need a mindset change. Explore NATO and the PfP. Why is your President not in Washington hardly ever? Go there. Be pro-active. Tell your Bankers to invest in China and India. Diversify. Forget this crap that the US and UK are our enemies because if that is true then God help Cyprus.

Get very close to the US and UK for God's sake. They are not your enemy. Make sure that they are not your enemy. Play the game like all the other countriues do. Your enemy is Turkey and I would say it is important for countries like the US and UK to like and assist Cyprus.

That is what I am trying to tell you!

The old mindset of US this UK that does you no good.

Cyprus and Greece has far more in common with US and UK, than the US and UK have with Turkey. Everyone knows this.

If you played the game, Cyprus would not even be under occupation today. That is the sad thing.

It is a lot more complicated than what you are portraying right now Sotos. If the Americans, Australians and Japanese had your mentality, then they would not even give each other the time of day.

You guys limit yourselves which is why the country is up shit creek.

Furthermore, we were never talking about the 50s. We were talking about 1974. In 1974, Britain was not our enemy. In the 50s, there was a campaign against Britain in Cyprus by EOKA. Separate issues. Now we are in 2013 for crying out loud but you guys still talk as if you're still in the 50s.

[repulsewarrior]

...in essence i have tried to express the same intention; it is new thinking that is needed.